Software - Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!

raid517 - 16.05.2006, 10:49 Uhr
Titel: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
Man I am nearly sceaming with frustration right now. I never really noticed the latest KDE upgrade. In fact I forgot I had done a distupgrade and didn't reboot for a couple of days - but boy when I did was I in for a shock!

KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything in my home directory! All of my bookmarks, all my emails, all my saved files, all my settings, everything!

Man I know Sid is supposed to be tempestuous - but this is taking things to a new level! Now I have lost months of contacts and valuable emails and must start again pretty much from scratch.

I am sorry guys - I know in a way I only have myself to blame, I know most of you guys will tell me this - I know Sid is about as stable and predicatble as a glue sniffing nun on roller skates - but dammit - these past 4 or 5 months in Sid have had my head spinning.

Of course there is nothing I can do - and I will just have to put up with it - but right at this point in time, I don't know whether to weep, or scream or just to laugh at the sheer irony of it all.

Suffice to say at least at this point, it really, really, really sucks.

devil - 16.05.2006, 11:14 Uhr
Titel: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
why dont you try to get yer data back?
have a look at testdisk, that might help.
btw, never heard of such a case, where kde wipes /home.

raid517 - 16.05.2006, 11:34 Uhr
Niether have I devil28. It makes no sense why KDE would do this. But there we are, it just happend to me.

Is there any utility on testdisk that can recover reiserfs partitions?

Neuer_User - 16.05.2006, 11:38 Uhr
Titel: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
Well, first I would have a look at the /home directory, if your data is really gone. Really seems to be strange that KDE "wipes" your home dir. Actually not strange, but nearly unbelievable...

Then I would check the integrity of your partition with fsck. For this, boot with the CD, don´t mount the partition and do a fsck. It should give you some infos, if your patition has been damaged. (Btw. this could not be done by KDE.)

Then try testdisk and ONLY if everything fails, restore your last backup. In this last case, if you don´t have a backup, then start weeping, screaming and laughing...

raid517 - 16.05.2006, 11:54 Uhr
Titel: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
Well you see one project I was working on was a disk image containing a highly customised version of Debian - which I planned to install on a number of machines. The disk image WAS my back up. I took it from a master and i figured that the safest place for it was on my home partition on my Linux box - because I thought even if the worst happened and maybe even if KDE messed up, it shouldn't affect the actual contents of my home partition.

The original disk image was only a little customised - where as the 'back up' was heavily customised, had taken about 72 hours work to complete and was a few hours away from being ready for deployment.

Well anyway i know/knew someone would say, 'why worry, why not just restore your backup'. But like you - and like most people here I have never heard of anything like this happening before. Besides which, like I said, even if KDE had messed up - it shouldn't have affected the contents of my home partition.

So the most recent back up I have is 72 hours old - but that is 72 hours of solid work down the toilet too.

It is nothing short of a monumental waste of time.

Neuer_User - 16.05.2006, 12:17 Uhr
Titel: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
Have you then already done some of the above mentioned checks on your home partition? I do hope you get your work back.
raid517 - 16.05.2006, 12:44 Uhr
Titel: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
I'm struggling a little with testdisk to try to work out how to actually scan the home reiserfs partition for deleted files. it is not very clear or intuitive how to do it.

etorix - 16.05.2006, 12:46 Uhr
Titel: RE: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
erm .. so the facts here are : you dist-upgraded/updated KDE from within KDE
didnt restart KDE for several days after presumably replacing lots of its innards
re-booted in the middleof a project
erm .. seems to be only one person at fault here
raid517 - 16.05.2006, 13:13 Uhr
Titel: RE: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
I didn't 'reboot in the middle of a project.' I closed the project down - exited it properly and then rebooted. Anyway thanks all the same I knew there would be some people who wouldn't be very sympathetic - but there we are.

It still means 72 hours of genuine hard, stressful (and mostly sleepless) work down the toilet. I've updated KDE from within KDE a zillion times before without event. It's also very easy to say after the fact what should have happend. It's not like anyone else here is completely bullet proof either.

Whatever way you look at it, KDE should not have deleted the entire contents of my home partition. That is just not something that should be possible. How on earth is it possible to predict that?

stryder - 16.05.2006, 13:51 Uhr
Titel: RE: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
I would try out neuer user's suggestions. In fact I would as root umount /home and mount the home partition somewhere else and then examine the /home folder as well as the partition. And probably other partitions. And do a search for that image file. Most times when things disappear they are hidden somewhere. I have found things in the folder that are lost because a partition is mounted there...
devil - 16.05.2006, 14:12 Uhr
Titel: RE: Damnit!!! KDE 3.5.2 wiped everything!!!!
you can use filelight to graphicall see, whats there.

raid517 - 16.05.2006, 19:23 Uhr
Thanks guys. I don't suppose anyone knows of any graphical way to recover the files?

I believe it is possible to recover everything with reiserfsprogs - although when I say everything apparently that means everything - including things that could be years old. Unfortunately I just don't have the space to store that amount of data. (Besides which it may end up overwriting my newer version of KDE with mixed files from several previous versions - potentially messing thing up even more).

Testdisk seems only to be useful for recovering lost partitions - as opposed to recovering individual files - or at least I can't see any obvious way to use it to scan for deleted files.

At least if I had some graphical type utility (or some other way to do it) I could pick which individual files to recover and which to discard.

I guess I could use the live CD - and try do some sort of scanning from there. But what exactly there is I could use I don't know.

h2 - 24.05.2006, 19:49 Uhr
Well, I'd say now it's fairly clear why one should not upgrade kde from within kde, no?

I'm assuming that's what happened.

Since, except for an xorg issue, I haven't seen any particular kde issues like this, I have to assume it was the upgrade from gui that caused the problems.

it is interesting on a technical level though to try to figure out just how the kde ram stuff got distorted, which is I assume what happened.

Maybe this thread should be archived so we can point it out as a clear example of just one reason why it's not in fact ok, to the people who keep insisting that dist-upgrade from within kde is not only ok, it's a cool thing to do.

raid, the problem is interesting, but may be very hard to solve since you probably triggered a very specific error condition in kde that may be barely, if at all, known.

Also, which version of kde/kanotix was running before the dist-upgrade? An undist-upgraded 2005-4/cebit/easter?

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the actual memory addresses kde used to store your home user data actually changed in the upgrade, so the 3 days you were working, everything was fine, since kde was happily writing to its old addresses, but then when you shut down, those are gone, and are replaced by the new ones, which deletes all the data. Or something like that. My guess is you will not be able to recover the data, since it was never actually written to permanent locations, just temp ones. Again, I'm not a memory allocation expert by any means, but this is my guess, sort of, roughly, what happened.

I now have zero question about why you upgrade in init 3.

raid, I'm not saying this to rub salt in wounds or anything, but if you did in fact dist-upgrade kde from inside kde, via synaptic or console, despite the clear and constant warnings not to do so, now hopefully you, and anyone else who is tempted to do this, will get that it's a bad idea to do it. And you now know at least one utterly, painfully, concrete reason, why it's a bad idea.

If, on the other hand, you did in fact upgrade from init 3, that's a much more serious issue, a definite bug, but I don't think that's what you did.
raid517 - 25.05.2006, 04:00 Uhr
Well it is all water under the bridge now. Painful wasted effort (a waste of life really) that I have no option but to chalk down to experience.

But think of it this way... It really doesn't seem so crazy to upgrade from within the environment you are working in for the average computer user. I know some people will despise the comparrision, but take for example Windows XP - I upgrade my Windows XP machines from work quite regularly (particularly for security features) and in this instance there is no alternative to doing things any other way - and generally I have encountered little ill effects from doing so.

Nor in any other operating system environment (OS X is another example if you hate Windows) would you expect such a process to be so potentially and completely destructive.

Now you might blame a user - and you can do so all you want - but a simple upgrade process should not be allowed to be capable of doing this - it simply should not be possible. In other environments it isn't - but apparently in this isntance we have to somehow make an exception and agree that it is.

Well anyway there is one thing about Linux - and that is that it never ceases to suprise you. There is always something new that it throws at you and you always have to keep learning. One day you imagine that eventually you will know enough to maybe be able to deal with almost anything - but as Linux always seems to have a new trick up it's sleve, that never really seems to be the case.

h2 - 25.05.2006, 05:09 Uhr
You're operating under a few mistaken assumptions, first off, when you upgrade xp, you almost always have to reboot on any significant upgrade. In other words, windows does pretty much exactly the same thing that kde does. Same goes for many major software upgrades, especially antivirus and firewall type stuff, reboot each time. Linux doesn't even make you reboot, all you have to do is get out of x, then restart x, not a very difficult thing to do if you ask me, and not a major effort when it comes to upgrading each and every piece of software on your machine.

You can ignore the suggestion to 'restart your computer now' in windows too, and it also leads to increasingly unpredictable behaviors.

This isn't, as you say, a 'simple upgrade process' at all. Not even remotely close to that. It's usually upgrading almost every component of kde, along with most of xorg. Not simple, and it's why the developers usually recommend that people do not do dist-upgrade, and if they want to do it, that they follow safe practices when they do do it.

You will not find anywhere or anyone on these forums, except that one poster who keeps insisting that updating kde from inside of kde is a: a good idea, and b: foolproof, that says you should do what you did, and anyone, and everything, that is posted on it, says to do it in init 3. I'm sure you'd seen this and heard this, but decided you could just do what you felt like anyway.

So sorry if I'm not overflowing with sympathy here.

There is nothing new or tricky about this concept at all, you are doing a major, massive upgrade of your distribution, there is nothing even remotely close to that action in either os x or windows, so you need to follow the rules for that procedure. If by some perverse reason that annoys you, then you probably should go back to windows I think, since it's not a hard rule to follow, and it's very logical, and makes total sense from a system perspective.

In your specific case, yes, I'm definitely blaming the user, since you seem to have some difficulty as a rule following good advice in general from what I've seen of your posts before. This just seems to be another case of that, and now you're trying to blame the system for something you shouldn't have done in the first place, makes no sense to me, but that's life. Are you sure you want to be using linux?

If you want to take something actually worthwhile from this, then make it this: START LISTENING TO WHAT PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER THAN YOU SAY!!!

That's the cause of your problems in this case, as in the last cases. For some reason you just won't do it, I don't know why, I don't care why, but it's definitely a pattern with you.

Second lesson: if you are going to do a dist-upgrade: DO IT IN INIT 3!!!

But the first lesson is much more important in your case.
raid517 - 25.05.2006, 06:51 Uhr
Well thanks I'm sure its well intended. (Or maybe it isn't?) But I don't need 'life advice' on an internet forum dealing with an operating system. I am completely willing to listen - but I have never heard anywhere specifically before that upgrading from within KDE is a 'bad idea'. I don't have time unfortunately to devote my life to learning linux and nothing else - maybe at best I only have one or two hours a week. But as i said, that is because I am just an average computer user. I am no addict - and I am certainly not an obsseive.

As for the Windows example I am not going to get into this, as it usually ends in someone making an unhelpful suggestion such as 'well why don't you go off and use Windows then?' But really whatever way you look at it, the experience is different. There is no impression that a user has to quit the window manager before updating. Sure you have to reboot - but it is still possible to update Windows from within Windows. Indeed this is the only way to do it. (Same goes for OS X) And being an average computer user as I am (who incidentally does not claim to know everything by any means (as clearly if I did as I said, I wouldn't ever need to ask for any help at all) unfortunately I often have no option but to take my cues from these other operating systems - specifically by assuming that the developers won't do anything that is potentially deliberately harmful to my system. (And that unfortunately is in actual fact is where I screw up most often in Linux).

As for do I really want to be using Linux? Well I guess that is the mention of that other OS that has ruffled your feathers in that regard - as this is a traditional (and very predictable) response to any mention of Windows in these topics. (Which is why I threw in OS X - which I also use - for good measure).

But to answer your question, I don't know whether I should use Linux or not. All I do know is that I wouldn't like it to get the better of me and I wouldn't like to feel that I had ever been defeated by it. That is just my personality, if someone says I can't do something my immediate instinct is to ask 'why the hell not?' So in most of the things I do I will keep cracking on at a problem until eventually I solve it - and Linux is by no means an exception to me.

So anyway whatever. This is old news now. I already redid the disk image and used up another valuable 3 days doing so - and now when I update KDE I will probably try to be much more careful.

Nonetheless it isn't possible to predict everything - and as you appear to imply, it isn't possible to always know everything either. (Sure something might have screwed up - but you would have thought it might have been recovereable. But I still contend that it would be impossible for anyone to predict that a KDE upgrade was capable of wiping the entire contents of a user's home directory - as this is not (as you pointed out) any kind of normal error condition that one would normally expect to encounter. It is just a pumb weird and utterly random thing to happen. Period).

Anyway as I said, it's history now and the well of human sympathy runs thin in some quarters indeed - so there is no point in going on about it either.

Maybe as I said one day I will master it all - but until then i guess I have no option but to go on trying.

schnorrer - 25.05.2006, 07:34 Uhr
Btw: using kde and reiserFS and data are wiped, sometimes after upgrade ReiserFS ist the one, who wipe the data.

That is a fact. Though I'd prefer ext3 as the best filesystem with journal for me.

To solve your problem use udelete.reiserfs to get your data back.
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