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General Support - Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

BklynBoy - 17.05.2006, 20:19 Uhr
Titel: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

I have been using Kanotix for over a year. I have been using it in place of Windows. And have sent along a couple of Paypal donations to support the development.

My problem is every now and then, when I do a dist-upgrade, I trash my installation. I always do either an init 3 or use the kanotix-update-gui program. I understand that I should dist-upgrade often but doing so just increases the chances that something will break my system. This last time I dist-upgraded I had (and still have) an error message when I login about a fatal sound server error. I have gotten help from this forum but none of it has solved this latest problem.

Worse though is the fact that GnuCash no longer works. I tried reinstalling, it seems to go well, but it just does not work any longer. When I start the app, it just goes dead. This is what I use to keep my checkbook in order. I need this. I tried to create a new check register using OpenOffice and after getting the spreadsheet just the way I needed, it crashed.

My many Windows computers do not give me such problems. I maintain a bunch of them in my job. And I am about to install a copy onto my own PC and maybe put on another Linux distro just for play.

Sadly, at least for this user, Kanotix does not seem to be ready to replace a (stable) Windows O/S.

Crust - 17.05.2006, 21:33 Uhr
Titel: RE: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

You don't have to dist-upgrade.

Just use each Kanotix release as is until a new release is out. Then, you can upgrade through the CD.

You can opt to upgrade at each release candidate or wait until each full release is out.

-Crust

BklynBoy - 17.05.2006, 21:38 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

Crust hat folgendes geschrieben::

By this, do you mean, I could install a fresh 2005-04 and leave it alone until the next general release comes out? Would it be safe to upgrade the kernel and run apt-get updates?

devil - 17.05.2006, 21:42 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

sure you can do it that way.
kernel updares are no problem. but i would use a later release, preferrably a Easter Preview.
reason for this is, they have xorg7 already installed. if you install stuff on 2005-04, you will sooner or later get in trouble, cause some app depends on xorg7 and your in trouble.
apt-get upgrade is not teally a good idea.
install an Easter Preview (they are very stable here) and just use apt-get install to get stuff you need.

greetz
devil

BklynBoy - 17.05.2006, 21:55 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

devil28 hat folgendes geschrieben::

Okay, will do. I just got the impression somewhere along the line that I really ought to dist-upgrade from time to time. But, no matter, I have a CD with the Easter RC4 version and will install that one. I will leave Windows off... for now.

THANKS MUCH!

Crust - 17.05.2006, 22:15 Uhr
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

IF you can manage the changes, you can perpetually dist-upgrade and keep your system intact, but as you already found out, it can be a tough task.

It is indeed easier to get the newest release and install or upgrade from that.

-Crust

ice - 17.05.2006, 22:26 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dist-Upgrade Kills Me!

Crust hat folgendes geschrieben::

The glory of Debian is its superior package mgmt system. What is the point of using a Debian distro if you don't take advantage of apt?

michael7 - 17.05.2006, 23:03 Uhr
Titel: Self-defense with Sid

BklynBoy,

I dist-upgrade every few weeks and yes, I have broken my install a time or two. What has saved me much grief is that I have the /home directory on a separate partition and I keep a file of the steps that I use to put Kanotix back the way I like it. For example, I run the fix-fonts shell script, change the screen resolution, set dpi, install msttcorefonts and so forth. (There's an out-of-date version of my notes at http://wiki.kanotix.net/CoMa.php?CoMa=I ... tionNotes)

Now, I can completely break my install and within 20 minutes have Kanotix back up and running with my preferences. Kanotix is just the best distro I've found, but because it's based on Debian Sid, some self-defense is in order. These two simple steps work for me. Good luck and have fun.

Michael

BklynBoy - 18.05.2006, 01:03 Uhr
Titel:

Unfortunately, even trying to install a fresh copy of the Easter RC4 version of Kanotix will not work for me. I still get this error:

Error - Artsmessage
Sound server fatal error
CPU Overload, aborting

And to make matters worse, this pop-up kept coming back seconds after I clicked it. Previously, on my original install, it would only come up once and be gone with one click. Why would this still be happening when booting from the CD?

I gotta load Windows on this PC, I have no choice, I need an O/S I can depend on. Maybe when some future release of Kanotix comes out or if I get another motherboard, like for an AMD64, I will try again.

feffer777 - 18.05.2006, 01:34 Uhr
Titel: RE: Self-defense with Sid

If a user wanted to follow this strategy of only upgrading his system when new releases were issued, for example starting with 2005-04 and upgrading with Easter, what's the best way to do that? Having home on a separate partition is clearly a good idea. The kanotix installer allows for upgrade installs, right? Is that option a safe/good choice? Will it leave packages that you've installed alone, or must you reinstall them? How about configuration files in /etc?

Thanks,
Ron

h2 - 18.05.2006, 01:52 Uhr
Titel: RE: Self-defense with Sid

if you want your stuff to stay the same, use dist-upgrade, but you have to keep up on the fixes as they happen, check on warnings before dist-upgrade to any major new component. If you want fewer problems, leave the 64 bit stuff to the people who have the time and energy and knowledge required to get that running.

All my stuff is dist-upgraded, every box, all from 2005-4 and it's all fine, no problems I'm aware of, at least no real dist-upgrade related issues.

I think this thread highlights just why it's worth keeping your system up to date, at least it does to me, the idea of reinstalling my os just to keep running just isn't very appealing to me.

I tend to tweak my stuff a lot though, lots of programs installed, lots tested, no way I'd spend the week or two it would require to get it more or less back the way I wanted it every few months, no thanks, if that were the actual real option I'd be using windows xp to be honest, I'm sorry to say. But happily it seems completely possible to keep the distribution updated without any major headaches.

Things that help do this:

for major upgrades or problematic upgrades, do a full rdiff-backup on system, makes recovery easy. If the upgrade for some reason breaks your system, restore fully, then check on irc/newspage for warnings and alerts when upgrade is safe again.

READ the stuff that is being upgraded, check it for possible problem areas.

run a test install on your system and do an upgrade on that first.

I currently have 3 test installs and 1 main working install, plus some other boxes to test on, one of which is also a working install, laptop, but it's not as heavily configured so I tend to test the upgrade on that as well before doing my main install upgrade.

always upgrade in init 3, I do it from boot, before starting kde, that avoids any potential error on my part. I also ignore the people who say they do dist-upgrade from synaptic, not because I don't believe them, but because I think it's a pointless risk to take, and I see no reason to take pointless risks just so I can say I do that.

Some care and forethought make this completely workable, and it's the only way I'd run this stuff at this point in my linux life, the future may see my preferences change of course.

I also wrote an upgrade script, but it's more oriented to bringing up 2005-4 to current than easter, so it would be of more limited utility at this point.

John - 18.05.2006, 05:39 Uhr
Titel: RE: Self-defense with Sid

@BklynBoy

please start a new thread with the arts-problem. perhaps someone can help you faster that way

you can dualboot kanotix and win, so you don't need to decide now what you're gotta use in the future. get windows as a backup if kanotix brakes and you got kanotix if windows however is infected by a virus etc. if you use fat and not ntfs you will be able to write on the windows partitition and to repair your win...

Humboldt - 18.05.2006, 10:34 Uhr
Titel: sequrity updates

Hi!
Someone above in this thread suggested leaving the Kanotix install in "peace" to gain stability, i.e. avoid dist-upgrades and only upgrade when there is a new ISO from Kano. This is ok, but don´t then forget to read the debian weekly news to get information about programs that needs to be updated for sequrity reasons.

Regards

slam - 18.05.2006, 12:48 Uhr
Titel: sequrity updates

Zitat:

This is ok, but don´t then forget to read the debian weekly news to get information about programs that needs to be updated for sequrity reasons.

Well, it's definitely a good advice for a production system to stick with Kanotix' final releases and not dist-upgrade. Actually that's a setup I successfully run with several clients. Some of them even run kind of a "poor man's install", with the read-only ISO-file boots from a central server, and clients only keep and backup their own /home, some of them even just on an USB-stick. If we talk desktop, you don't even have to read the security stuff. If in any case there would be something really serious we would warn at the front page.

If you run a public accessable server things are different. First of all, Kanotix is not optimized for that (there might be a server edition in the future, however). Second, running a server needs to take care for additional several stability and security related issues. In this case I strongly recommend reading the related security bulletins, and also reccomend careful dist-upgrade from time to time.

Greetings,
Chris

BklynBoy - 20.05.2006, 16:14 Uhr
Titel:

I was able to successfully install the CeBiT version and am back up & running. I updated apps and kernel but did not try dist-upgrading though will do so on a test system. Thanks to all for the help.

kb0hae - 21.05.2006, 03:34 Uhr
Titel:

Hi. I think it helps to do a backup every week or two. Then you can always go back to a working system and only loose a week or two worth of changes. I don't have a home folder on a seperate drive, but I do have my data (files pictures etc...) on a seperate drive. That drive gets backed up once a month or so to CD-RW disks. I do not dist-update or dist upgrade, but I do update software sometimes for security reasons. Stuff like Firefox, and Thunderbird.

For the most part if it isn't broke I don't fix it. (its broke if there is a security problem)

PS. I have only needed the backups once with Kanotix, compaired to Windows where I needed to use the backup, or reinstall several times a year!

craigevil - 21.05.2006, 07:06 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Self-defense with Sid

feffer777 hat folgendes geschrieben::

From the Kanotix manual:
Kanotix Update

Zitat:

Also, program packages which are not on the "live-CD" will be deleted. This includes those packages which were additionally added to the existing installation by the user. For a convenient reinstallation save the list of programs/packages in /root/old-packages-YYYYMMDD-HHMM.txt which can be used to reinstall all packages with apt-get after the update installation:

apt-get install $(</root/old-packages-20051221-2030.txt)

With one click on "Update" you can start the update-installation which will be performed in the console. Finally the last inquiry asks you if you really want to do the update installation.