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General Support - Firefox or 'Iceweasel.'

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 03:06 Uhr
Titel: Firefox or 'Iceweasel.'

Hi, say for example that I wasn't entirely happy with someone choosing my politics for me, is there possibly an unofficial repository anywhere that I can add to my sources.list where I can still download the officially names Firefox with all of the 'offending' artwork?

I don't like the new name very much - and in any case, for me Firefox will always be Firefox.

Again I don't really want to get into the politics of it - and I know they are the same. However I personally would prefer to choose to stick with the original name and the original artwork.

I really think this should be the users choice.

Kano - 27.11.2006, 03:11 Uhr
Titel: RE: Firefox or

Install Ubuntu.

h2 - 27.11.2006, 03:34 Uhr
Titel: RE: Firefox or

jebus, no one is 'choosing your politics for you'. You choose debian, debian has a social contract, which is what you are referring to as 'politics'.

If you don't want to use a distro with this social contract, then you don't want debian.

I also dislike the name iceweasel, in fact, I think it's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen or heard, but that's what debian chose, unfortunately. And likewise, they can't use firefox, so it had to be something. It's definitely too bad it couldn't be firefox, or some other name that isn't as silly, but that's what it is.

It's easy to install tarball of firefox, simple, just download it, unzip it, and run it from your home directory. I usually make a directory called bin in my home directory to put this stuff in for testing etc.

But one thing debian could not choose was to use the name firefox. That was impossible for them to do because of the debian rules about using non free images. Plus mozilla.com was being very unreasonable about the whole thing.

So you kind of have to make up your mind as user: do you want to use debian, or do you want to use something that is not debian? That's the actual user choice you have.

Objectively, who really cares what it's called, it's a name, it has an icon, you click on the icon to run the program, which is more or less the same program that is named firefox, minus some stuff that doesn't work on debian, and plus some subtle little changes to make it work better on debian. I don't look at the name, I look at the tabs and websites.

Cathbard - 27.11.2006, 04:01 Uhr
Titel:

If you use Iceweasel from the repos it will be upgraded/updated with apt-get. Also debian specific bug fixes are going to come with your apt-get updates. There's more to it than just the political issues.
You can always label your launcher to say Firefox and substitute a firefox icon. It is still firefox, it's just Firefox the debian way. The non-free Firefox logos are just a right moose button away. Winken

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 04:55 Uhr
Titel:

Yes well as I said 'the debate' doesn't interest me very much. I would still like a repository if anyone knows of one?

There are sometimes repositories where someone will take an official Debian build of something and rename it and re-add the artwork. I have seen this happen more than once.

There are other people using other versions of Firefox in Debian too - so as far as I can see it is a matter of individual choice. After all, isn't that what Linux is about - choice?

I chose Debian because it's what I am most familiar with - but it doesn't mean I am obligated to agree with everything the upstream developers do.

Which is why (although thanks for the suggestion Kano) I don't particularly feel inclined to install Ubuntu either - as I have some phiosphical issues with their approach to doing things too.

But what point is there if we can't all sometimes agree and sometimes disagree?

Where's the fun in that?

Besides which I like most people here, usually have my computer stuffed full to the brim with all kinds of potentially 'illegal' and 'patent infringing' software, codecs and applications and so on - it is like most people one of the first things I install after I install an OS. So it would be hypocrtical of me to worry too much about a few icons and a name. I can see how it might be an issue for upsteam developers - But less so I think for ordinary users. We can't claim it's a social contract - and then instanly go and break that contract by installing all kinds of stuff that might be legally questionable. (And I do know I am not the only one who does this).

Anyway it's a bit strong in my view Kano implying that I'm not welcome to use Kanotix - and that I should go away and use Ubuntu, just because I asked if there was a way to still instal the original Firefox through apt. I really didn't mean to offend anyone by asking. But if you are serious I will take you at your word. I genuinely wouldn't want to use anything that I am not really welcome to use.

cleary - 27.11.2006, 05:43 Uhr
Titel:

jebus197: it's not just politics from debian, it's politics from the Mozilla Foundation too.

You say you're not interested in the politics, yet you keep painting Debian as determining the users rights, which is something you seem to care a lot about - in short this means that you are interested in the politics whether you like it or not.

The problem is, Mozilla said Debian can't distribute "Firefox" (as in the name) any longer, unless "every deviation from the original packagaing" the Debian developers make is run past and approved by Mozilla staff.
The problem is that Debian backports security fixes as far as Firefox 1.0.4 which is no longer supported by the Mozilla Foundation, and waiting on Mozilla beurecracy to approve such fixes is unacceptable.

Then there's the trademark issues.

Obviously you can tell from the above situation, little unofficial repos distributing "Firefox tm" are now illegal, so it's likely you won't find any.
Ubuntu have partnered with the Mozilla Foundation and agreed to their terms and conditions, so Kano's comment was serious. If you want "Firefox" that badly, that's where you should go.

I found this was an easy reading summary: http://lwn.net/Articles/200857/

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 06:15 Uhr
Titel:

I am not sure about calling Firefox 'illegal'. It was simply a dispute (not even that - a philosophical disagreement is probably a better description) between the upstream developers of both Debian and Firefox. I understand the motivations - but further down the line the reality is that we all bend the rules - we don't play it like we are signing our name on some dotted line somewhere. After all as I said, who here, if we are being honest, doesn't have a million different potentially 'illegal' and infringing codecs and other third party software & utilities installed?

In light of this it seemed like a fairly innocuous question. I certainly didn't think it would spur a debate - it is after all (to us, the users) a few icons and a name. But for me, I feel as though I owe some loyalty to Firfox developers too - so my own loayties are split.

I do not like Ubuntu - I don't like the herd mentality or the way so many people flock to it without looking at all the other options. Anyway I don't know if that's the way Kano meant it. It probably wasn't. I hope it wasn't. Possibly he meant it the way you said it, that Ubuntu has a formal association with the Firefox team - hence why he made the sugestion. There is also a perception that Ubuntu is 'just for n00bs' which is a title I am not very comfortable with.

But anyway as I said, all I was asking was if anyone knew of an unofficial repository, which all things considered, given all of the other (probably much more questionable) things I have installed, didn't really seem so out of context.

h2 - 27.11.2006, 06:47 Uhr
Titel:

just install the tarballed ff from mozilla.com if having the name be 'firefox' everywhere in it is that important to you.

It's not particularly hard to do that, I did it for months while trying to figure out a firefox issue.

You definitely have the choice to do that, I did it, so what's the problem?

I can't see any point at all in a debian dev spending any time at all packaging firefox just so the name firefox can appear, that's not a particularly interesting way to spend your time.

And you can just write a small script to automatically download, unpack, and install the latest ff tarball if that's what you want, there's no problem with that at all.

Or, even easier, just don't worry about the name, the packaged iceweasel will integrate better into debian. But either way, you have the choice, so why worry about this at all?

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 06:55 Uhr
Titel:

Well no, I didn't think there was a problem. As I said I simply asked if there might be a repository. As I said the debate isn't likely to be relevant to most ordinary users anyway - since we all as users tend to have lots of things installed that upstream developers might rather we didn't talk too much about.

Which is why I said too that the politics and the phiosophical debate behind this issue at the end of the day probably aren't really all that relevant to a mere mortal like me.

It would have just been neat to still be able to use Apt to keep Firefox up to date. But if that isn't possible, well fair enough.

cleary - 27.11.2006, 06:58 Uhr
Titel:

Jebus197 - i'm not sure if you actually read my post, the gist of it is: nobody can legally distribute firefox - the name or the icons unless the code is identical to the original release from mozilla foundation, or every change is approved by the mozilla foundation.
i had rhe same frame of mind as you until i read the link. It's a stalemate - and it's not just affecting debian.
I can see such a repository being very popular, and as such i can see it being shut down with the threat of legal action very quickly

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 07:27 Uhr
Titel:

Well I did read it - and yes that does sound like some corporate dick getting a hard-on for his trademarks. Hmm... whatever happened to the idea of free software that you can change in any way you want? What next I wonder - will he want to patent FireFox?

Well anyway I will still call it FireFox (for now) and if there is a real fork, hopefully someone will think of a better name. (And also hopefully they won't be such an ass over trademarks either).

The problem with FireFox is I suppose that they are a victim of their own success. They have a huge war chest of money from their various sponsors - and of course when you have that kind of money you tend to end up hiring a lot of legal staff and developers with a corporate background.

Also if it's true that FireFox developers don't really care that much about Linux - then I think they really have lost touch with their roots - and maybe a fork wouldn't be such a bad thing after all.

I can see why they might take issue with the need for patches to be applied upstream - rather than have 50 different versions of FireFox, which might become incompatible with each other and which don't have the quality control applied to them in the same way that upstream patches are applied - and how Mozilla are afraid that this might hurt their trademark. But if they aren't applying patches and if they are neglecting Linux, then maybe a change is exactly what's needed? I would definitely be all for a properly maintained fork of FireFox that was built purely for Linux. Then Mozilla can focus on Windows - and privatise FireFox too if they want.

My original objections were based purely on loyalty. I used FireFox for years. It's hard to make the change. (And also that Iceweasel name is just silly).

But really I care about Linux more - and I despise corporate dicks like this with my last breath - so hey, maybe I can learn to live with the change after all.

h2 - 27.11.2006, 07:45 Uhr
Titel:

<<< and I despise corporate dicks like this with my last breath - so hey, maybe I can learn to live with the change after all. >>>>

couldn't have put it better, lol...

that's really all this was about.

h2 - 27.11.2006, 07:59 Uhr
Titel:

Here's the debian maintainer's blog on this story

Well worth a read, along the the link cleary posted.

nemesis - 27.11.2006, 13:26 Uhr
Titel:

To me it sounds like they were being spiteful when they came up with the name IceWeasel...kinda like a paradoy of the Firefox name....as if to say "You don't want us to use the name Firefox?? Well...how do you like this name....Bi*ches!..."

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 13:31 Uhr
Titel:

Mmm... Well Mozilla always have been slow to implement changes.

Interesting reading. There seems to be nothing but good that the Debian team have done - yet Mozilla's chief complaint is that they have to actually 'look' at these changes - and as it's Linux, they aren't really all that interested in doing so.

Oh well... It seems my mind has been changed. But then again, I didnt know that Mozilla were behaving quite so agressively.

Like I said, that's what happens when you get that kind of money - the lawyers come in and take over.

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 14:05 Uhr
Titel:

The only thing with Iceweasel is that for me the text is really tiny - and changing the text size in Firefox/Iceweasel preferences doesn't seem to have any effect either.

The fonts also don't look quite as good. Is there possibly a way to fix this?

drb - 27.11.2006, 14:43 Uhr
Titel:

about:config

change layout.css.dpi setting from -1 to 0

drb

mzilikazi - 27.11.2006, 16:05 Uhr
Titel:

Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::

The non-free Firefox logos are just a right moose button away. Winken

My moose has no buttons - only antlers. Smilie

Well I went completely off the Debian path and used Swiftfox and have not looked back. It's now on all of my Linux boxes and the name Swiftfox is very accurate.

kstevek - 27.11.2006, 16:51 Uhr
Titel:

Yup, I agree Swiftfox seems to be a fine app. and the name fits... dont really know why but it does seem faster than Iceweasel too, perhaps one of the resident clever clogs could explain that?

so get Swiftfox dude...

cheers kstevek

wakarimasen - 27.11.2006, 18:44 Uhr
Titel:

is Swiftfox apt-get installable?

nemesis - 27.11.2006, 18:51 Uhr
Titel:

yeah...check the site

edit: here it is

deb http://getswiftfox.com/builds/debian unstable non-free

Crest - 27.11.2006, 18:51 Uhr
Titel:

There is imo no repository, just download the .deb package from the Swiftfox page (already linked above). There should be normally no problem using the old firefox profile in your home directory, also Swiftfox uses ./mozilla/firefox profile directory.

jebus197 - 27.11.2006, 19:00 Uhr
Titel:

Code:

# SwiftFox

deb http://getswiftfox.com/builds/debian unstable non-free

Which is pretty much what I was asking for I guess. It still makes you think though. I mean it still sucks the way Mozillia is behaving.

sk11 - 28.11.2006, 03:36 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Firefox or

h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::

I also dislike the name iceweasel, in fact, I think it's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen or heard, but that's what debian chose, unfortunately. And likewise, they can't use firefox, so it had to be something. It's definitely too bad it couldn't be firefox, or some other name that isn't as silly, but that's what it is.

It could've been chosen to humiliate mozilla, the name iceweasel may have sounded amusing to the debian people. I'd have preferred something cool, like IceWolf, wolves are clearly better than foxes (more intelligent, tougher, stronger, etc.). Foxes are kinda l-a-m-e in comparison. :cheeky:

It reminds me of when we were picking disk names at work, I wanted to use native American names such as apache, navaho, mohican, etc., not because I'm particularly into NA stuff, I just thought the names sound very cool. We ended up with big-nose, big-head, big-foot and big-bum. The admin, who has a very crude and imature sense of humour, found it funny and so that's what we were stuck with. :sigh:
Interestingly enough though, big-bum was the last disk to be filled.

Btw, I don't think kano was being rude, German's tend to be very direct and to-the-point ;P, or maybe it's just that english isn't his best language.

sk11 - 28.11.2006, 03:51 Uhr
Titel:

It may be because I'm tired, but something about jebuses posts doesn't sound right. He very early on, informs us that he's into 'illegal'/'patent infringing' things and that we all do such things, reassuring us that it's normal behaviour. He also kept asking about debian firefox repos, which one poster had pointed out were illegal.

My wild, conspiracy theory guess is that he's a mozilla corp, or maybe even a MS lawyer, attempting to bait linux distros. It would certainly be more interesting then someone just, simply, wanting to have a debian distro using the name firefox for the sake of it.

[horror movie cliche dialogue #12]They're here![/horror movie cliche dialogue #12]

doknir - 28.11.2006, 09:00 Uhr
Titel:

Hello!

How to install non-english IceWeasel/SwiftFox ?

Thanks, Roman

titan - 28.11.2006, 09:16 Uhr
Titel:

Anyone who has read about and understood the saga about Debian and Mozilla Corp should have no problem using Iceweasel, it is Mozilla code improved for Debian what more could you ask for. I have tried Swiftfox but apart from a very slight speed improvement can't see any other improvements in fact it seems to render fonts on some sites worse, they always look crap here www.theregister.co.uk/ .it's licence also forbids redistribution so I don,t think it will ever be in any official repository.

titan - 28.11.2006, 09:23 Uhr
Titel:

doknir hat folgendes geschrieben::

Hello!

How to install non-english IceWeasel/SwiftFox ?

Thanks, Roman

Roman,

Iceweasel is apt getable from the normal Sid repros along with the Slovenian language pack, these are now the official Debian version of Firefox. Swiftfox is only from the developers site shown earlier in this thread.

doknir - 28.11.2006, 09:57 Uhr
Titel:

Hello!

I've just downloaded

Code:

apt-get install iceweasel-l10n-sl

and what to do now?
Is this the correct package?
IceWeasel is still in english language ...

Thanks, Roman

titan - 28.11.2006, 10:12 Uhr
Titel:

doknir hat folgendes geschrieben::

Hello!

I've just downloaded

Code:

apt-get install iceweasel-l10n-sl

and what to do now?
Is this the correct package?
IceWeasel is still in english language ...

Thanks, Roman

In iceweasel edit - preferences - advanced - choose language your chosen language should be selectable from a drop down list.

doknir - 28.11.2006, 10:28 Uhr
Titel:

Hello!

titan hat folgendes geschrieben::

In iceweasel edit - preferences - advanced - choose language your chosen language should be selectable from a drop down list.

Isn't this setting for websites that are multi-lingual?

IMHO I will have to download source of IceWeasel and recompile
it with Slovenian language pack ... Sehr glücklich

Regards, Roman

titan - 28.11.2006, 10:54 Uhr
Titel:

Roman,

Are you running your computer and KDE in your chosen language, the iceweasel pack is just for sites in your chosen language. If you have kde in Slovenian then I assume all application headers menus etc are in that language ie iceweasel.

vilde - 28.11.2006, 10:55 Uhr
Titel:

It's a little fun to follow the discussions about the names for, Firefox, Icewhatever and so on. I have followed and used Mozilla and what became Firefox later since they started to give out milestones and nightly builds, and that some years back now. The name has changed a lot of times during the years, I don't remember all the names Firefox has had before but it's at least three or foure I think. Everey time the name changed there have been huge discussions. Personely I don't care what the name is, this is the best no cost Browser and I will use it whatever the name will be.

doknir - 29.11.2006, 11:51 Uhr
Titel:

Hello!

titan hat folgendes geschrieben::

Yes I have downloaded

Code:

apt-get install kde-i18n-sl

apt-get install koffice-i18n-sl

and switched to Slovenian language. So I'm running Konqueror/KDE and KOffice
in [sl] language. Also it's easy to change language in Opera browser by putting
appropriate .LNG file into the following folder:

Code:

/usr/share/opera/locale/

According to this page
http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/all.html
it seems that separate binary of IceWeasel/FireFox is needed for each language.

I hope that Mozilla will introduce dynamic change of language in FireFox 3 ...

Regards, Roman

P.S. Where is german version of IceWeasel for example ???

El-Zorro - 05.12.2006, 11:27 Uhr
Titel: Just go to firefox,/thunderbird,/Seamonkey releases

Just download the full linux installer for any firefox, thunderbird, seamonkey release and extract/ install by default to usr/local./ eg seamonkey.
Also downlload flashplugin for Linux, extract and read the how to docs.
You transcend the politics then, like it should really be.
You will have to edit and save a new menu entry.
Ian Murdock founder of Debian would agree also, one of his aims is to have universal packages for Linux.
Kano has also thoughtfully supplied CLICK software, another interesting approach, but the flash plugin does not work.
Hence the tarred installers work best, and you can keep up with the latest.
Best of luck
El Zorro Cool