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ice
Titel: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 07:52 Uhr



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I'd be curious to know where this notion comes from, because there is nothing in the Debian pages that says single user mode is either necessary or recommended. In fact, quite the opposite http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html#s-updaterunning.
 
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jackiebrown
Titel: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 08:13 Uhr



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I use synanpic - but there are strong opposing views against that here.

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markb
Titel: RE: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 08:15 Uhr



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Actually, can I also ask why init 3 is recommended over simply CRTL-ALT-F1 and switching to a non-X console from which to run the upgrade?
 
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etorix
Titel: RE: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 09:25 Uhr
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markb hat folgendes geschrieben::
Actually, can I also ask why init 3 is recommended over simply CRTL-ALT-F1 and switching to a non-X console from which to run the upgrade?
Because xorg is updating nearly every day lately
on init 3, X is stopped,KDE is stopped
you shouldnt update X within X
or KDE while KDE is running
only dist-upgrade once X is stopped
we [i] dist-upgrade EVERYDAY.. the factoid infos, [about synaptic for one] is from bitter experience
if you update xserver-xorg with synaptic , yer an eejit

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etorix
Titel: RE: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 09:39 Uhr
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also , synaptic brings in gnome-libs ; and depends on python
its a great app for package-info
but ive had it hang on install of a pkg so often ...
see !apt in #kanotix ; the debian-reference is an basic guide only, large parts of it were written years ago,or/and apply to SARGE [or woody,or potato,ie the stable branch]
this is SID. unstable, in this case, means the major components of the system are constantly updated.
not unstable as in crashy
its not always 100% mandatory to go to init 3;its a good habit to get into;some things need restarting
this aint a exact science tho;commonsense applies.
its only rocket-science after all

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x-un-i
Titel: Re: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 10:24 Uhr
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ice hat folgendes geschrieben::
I'd be curious to know where this notion comes from, because there is nothing in the Debian pages that says single user mode is either necessary or recommended.


I dunno what kind a system you are running but didn't knew that runlevel 3 was single user mode

have you seen for instance that when the dist-upgrade updates a server programm it stops it?

i think it's advisable the user do the same with "his" running progs.

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slam
Titel: Re: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 11:12 Uhr



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1) Please understand that runlevels do not have a defined standard. Runlevels in other distributions - and even in Debian stable - might be different from the runlevel setup we use in Kanotix.

2) Runlevel 3 ist not single user mode in Kanotix.

3) Single user mode is not necessary for dist-upgrade - however, it would be a good idea for bigger dist-upgrades (some packages do not like to be used while upgraded, and stopping all other users is a good way to control whats running).

4) The recommended procedures for dist-upgrade are different between Debian sid and unstable (a very nice explanation is already given above).

5) It is not necessary to go init 3 for dist-upgrade in Kanotix, but it is the easiest way to stop KDE, KDM and X. You may also stop them manually and stay in runlevel 4.

6) Never drive a motorcycle without a helmet - and never use Synaptic for dist-upgrades. Winken And don't use apt-get upgrade on Kanotix.

Greetings,
Chris

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x-un-i
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 11:43 Uhr
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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
1) Please understand that runlevels do not have a defined standard.



Things are well defined, defaults are left free


man init says the following
Zitat:
A runlevel is a software configuration of the system which allows only a selected group of processes to exist. The processes spawned by init for each of these runlevels are defined in the /etc/inittab file. Init can be in one of eight runlevels: 0–6 and S (a.k.a. s). The runlevel is changed by having a privileged user run telinit, which sends appropriate signals to init, telling it which runlevel to change to.

Runlevels S, 0, 1, and 6 are reserved. Runlevel S is used to initialize the system on boot. When starting runlevel S (on boot) or runlevel 1 (switching from a multi-user runlevel) the system is entering ``single-user mode'', after which the current runlevel is S. Runlevel 0 is used to halt the system; runlevel 6 is used to reboot the system.

After booting through S the system automatically enters one of the multi-user runlevels 2 through 5, unless there was some problem that needs to be fixed by the administrator in single-user mode. Normally after entering single-user mode the administrator performs maintenance and then reboots the system.

Runlevels 7-9 are also valid, though not really documented. This is because "traditional" Unix variants don't use them.

Runlevels S and s are the same. Internally they are aliases for the same runlevel.


The default runlevel is defined in "etc/inittab"

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Cuddles
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 14:11 Uhr



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ice,

As mentioned, you dont want to upgrade something that is running. Even if apt does a shutdown of the service just before it upgrades it, doesnt it just make more sense, to ensure that "you" have shutdown the service, as well? Like a "double-check".

jackiebrown,

I use synaptic too. BUT, not to do major upgrading, or dist-upgrading, with. I use synaptic to search for "related" packages, and even check on the information of them. Which, I could do just as easily with a simple combination of apt commands, but, I do like GUI stuff. Nothing wrong with using a GUI, when it is used correctly... I wouldnt use, unfortunately, I did use, synaptic to do a dist-upgrade "once" when I was running Knoppix, it made a complete shambles of my install. True, it could have been "Knoppix's" nature of messing up with a dist-upgrade, or, it could have been, just maybe, the fact that "synaptic" just cant handle too much, when it does mess up. Either way, I would be hard-pressed to think anyone would want to do a "major" upgrade of anything that is still running, like KDE, or Xorg, while it is still running.

markb,

As stated by others, and in my response... I would never want to upgrade something that is still running... Even if apt "does" attempt to shutdown the service before it upgrades it, why take the chance? I would much rather do a "init 3" myself, to ensure that "if" apt doesnt succeed in shutting down the service on its own, I already have.

As another point, even x-un-i, and slam made some mention of it, sometimes stopping some services is a good thing, once and a while. Its not like Windows, you dont have to actually reboot the complete system, just some services. When you run a system for weeks, even months, at a time, I rely on "logrotate" to clean out log files, etc... by stopping and restarting a service, it changes the log files as well.

Just some thoughts,

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mzilikazi
Titel: Re: Why INIT 3 before upgrading?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 15:53 Uhr
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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
And don't use apt-get upgrade on Kanotix.

Greetings,
Chris


Why? It's the only way I personally will ever upgrade either Kanotix or Debian. This way apt is allowed to make intelligent decisions about what should be installed and often times it will leave something to be upgraded until all the packages are finally ready. A perfect example is from earlier this week when everyone that used dist-upgrade also pulled in x11-common too soon and therefor could not log into X. This is not the way to bring new users over, having them upgrade something that's working to something that's broken. Waiting a few days and still using only apt-get upgrade pulled the proper packages in once they were ready with no difficult to remember command line intervention required. It just doesn't make sense and I still have yet to see one compelling reason to use dist-upgrade. Besides, you can always upgrade those packages that are left if you think you really need to. Just my .02

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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 15:53 Uhr



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slam said:
Zitat:
6) Never drive a motorcycle without a helmet - and never use Synaptic for dist-upgrades. Winken And don't use apt-get upgrade on Kanotix.


I've been using apt-get update then apt-get upgrade for a long time without problems. I DO however use:
ctrl-alt-F1
login as root
init 3
apt-get dist-upgrade
init 5
Why not use apt-get upgrade on Kanotix?

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 16:14 Uhr



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Zitat:
Why? It's the only way I personally will ever upgrade either Kanotix or Debian. This way apt is allowed to make intelligent decisions about what should be installed and often times it will leave something to be upgraded until all the packages are finally ready.

Well, apt-get upgrade is intended to work on Debian Stable - and it does a fabulous job there. The package selection is given there, dependencies and naming conventions are fixed. However, Kanotix is Debian Sid - everything is not just "still unter development", but also moving and changing package names and inter-dependencies here. If you follow my advice, package maintainers and the Kanotix team can do a lot to make everything as easy as possible for you on this moving ground. But if you insist on apt-get upgrade, you will sooner or later have to fix the results - up to you.

I have been driving motorcycle undammaged for 3 years without helmet in my younger days - do you think this was an intelligent decision? Winken

Greetings,
Chris

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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 16:46 Uhr



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So I guess it would be safe then to add an extra step like this?

ctrl-alt-F1
login as root
init 3
apt-get upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade
init 5

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al3
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 16:48 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
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Hey newbies! (Yeah, I mean YOU!). Are you using Kanotix for your every-day work as I do as well as my very expensive wife does? If so, LISTEN UP!

When you get a stable version of Kanotix from Kano, it is just THAT.... stable. It's stable as HELL! Solid. Kano is a great software engineer and he turns out production-quality distribution. It's part of his reputation (along with being able to drink a lot of beer!)

If your Kanotix works well, DO NOT UPGRADE OR DIST-UPGRADE at all... unless there is some major security issue or some must-have new feature for some package you use often (such as FireFox or OO2)... and in that case just upgrade the individual package (set).

People think that they are going to squeeze out one extra machine cycle and that they WILL NOTICE IT. Well most often it doesn't happen... and in some cases "fixing" one thing breaks another.

Don't get suckered into the "gotta be on the bleeding edge" mentality that often occurs in the Linux community. Let Kano, Slam, Miz, Jackie, Piper, Cuddles, Etorix, Chris, and a bunch of others be the "first in the water" with upgrades and if you just 'gotta' upgrade (it's a sickness... there should be a 12 step program for it!) wait until these good folks give their blessing. Just don't go off willy-nilly and start doing (dist) upgrades because you want to be 'cool.' One day you are going to do so and just end up being 'stupid.' Trust me. I've been in the software biz for 30 years now (I'm older than God) and I've been 'stupid', I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being new in Linux.

If it works... let it work... don't %$#@ with it.

Al

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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 17:38 Uhr



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Al: Thanks for your reply--it certainly applied to me I'm (a little) embarrassed to admit Verlegen
I'm using 2.6.15.6-kanotix-1 kernel & see no need to upgrade it just to upgrade. However, I DO like to upgrade packages to get new features, AND I just plain like to tinker. I understand the risks involved, but just can't help myself. Maybe a 12-step program would help. Winken I try to be careful by reading the output of upgrades before "willy-nilly" pressing the "y" key to accept changes, but, what's the point of using sid-based Kanotix if one doesn't want new packages? One might as well use debian stable if you want nothing to break. The reason I use Kanotix is because of it's "bleeding edge" nature.

I've been using GNU/Linux for only 2 yrs so, yeah, I AM a newbie but am learning. One of the ways I do that is to experiment & yeah, sometimes things break & it can be quite frustrating, but it's better in my mind & less boring to do that than not take risks & not learn by fixing things. Linux is FUN. Windows was boring, & is ONE of the reasons for my switching. So while I understand your point, saying "DO NOT UPGRADE OR DIST-UPGRADE at all" doesn't make much sense IMHO. Respectfully,

Kurt

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 17:56 Uhr



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So, probably we are still all infected by the "Windows Drug": "There is every day a problem to solve, I need to upgade, need to be among the first." A 12 steps programme is probably not enough to cure this serious problem.

Windows has trained us to be the rabbit who desperately needs to run in order to stay alive. Now we are all hunters, but we still have this rabbit-feeling in our bones ... Winken

Regarding dist-upgrading an already bleeding edge system: Well, there might probalby be a reward - sometimes, but always a price to pay. With every upgrade/dist-upgrade you sail further away from the well known and secured Kanotix-waters, into the wild open seas of Debian unstable. If you make your living fishing with your boat - don't risk it. If you got a spare boat (or nothing to loose at home), join us in our life-risking expedition. Winken

Greetings,
Chris

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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 18:22 Uhr



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@ slam

But the people who run Kanotix like you are the best crew you find on the Seven Seas, and the people in the forum the best "passengers". So running like a rabbit is fun, when using Kanotix on a desktop.

Also: compared to other distributions, real big upgrades like xorg, hal/udev or KDE are really smooth here.

So I am a wild dist-upgrader (I'm too old to wait), and so 5 things are important for me:

1. Always backup data
2. Keep another working box ready
3. Give /home a home (a seperate partition)
4. Never forget the Kanotix-CD at home
5. Let's go! # apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade

And for the faint-hearted:
1. Never touch a running Kanotix
2. Wait for the next Kanotix-CD to upgrade (more or less every second month anyway, or more often)

For the conservatives:
1. Just upgrade kernels
2. Upgrade packages listed in Debian-News for security
3. Dist-upgrade with the next Kanotix-CD

hubi

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al3
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 18:29 Uhr



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Kurt (et.al).

The 'key' to my post was if you use Kanotix as your "production" or "real" distro? If it breaks... are you 'out of business'? I use Kanoitx as my everyday distro. True, I have a 'back up' distro (Debian Etch) and a version of PCLinuxOS and another version of Kanoitx that I use to test stuff when I'm in the mood... which isn't often these days.

What everyone WANTS is a stable enviornment that has programs (packages) with the new features. About the only way you get that is with Sid. The downside is that Sid can break more easily than Etch, Sarge, or other distros (CentOS, PCLinuxOS, etc.) It's a trade-off.

Kanotix not only runs all my somewhat new hardware, it has a great community of talented Linux folks who can help if needed. My method is to install a new Kanoitx 'stable' when it comes out and only update those few programs that I depend on.... and only if there is a good reason. For example I need to update my Palm pilot Zaire 21 often... and both udev and kpilot are two of the weakest links in Linux. Thus I keep those fairly up-to-date, along with most of KDE. I also use apache, php, and MySQL. But I don't need the latest versions of those programs because they work fine and there are no current security issues with them... so I don't bother upgrading them. Next time a new Kanoitx comes out I'll 'catch up' with the latest version of these.

If you like to tinker and you know enough to fix what you break, that's great. While I know plenty about Linux I don't have the time or energy to fix stuff. Once I get a distro that is new enough for me and works well enough I leave pretty much alone until the next version comes out. YMMV.

Al

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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 18:50 Uhr



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@ al

Your way of doing is exactly what I recommended a friend of mine who does not know very much about Linux. At the moment I only can recommend Kanotix on the desktop as the best distribution, he managed to install it without problems and got all hardware running. So he will upgrade this installation with the next CD which comes out.

He updates security related issues, e.g. firefox, and I still have to tell him how to install a new kernel through e-mail (he lives in another town).

But that's the great thing with Kanotix, you have quite a huge choice what you do with your box. Regarding a production server: I might not run debian sid on it. But I don't have one, and our web- and mailserver at work runs Red Hat and is professionally supported (I am not working in IT).

hubi

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 19:55 Uhr



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al3, while your points would be good if that was a realistic option, I've found that it simply isn't. Almost right away after I installed 2005-4, I needed to install some small kde app, and was immediately jumped up to the the next kde level, 3.5 I think it was, which means essentially almost all of the system was upgraded just to install that one app.

If kanotix livecd was released just exactly the way I want it, with each and every piece of software, and all the extra hardware stuff I spent a few weeks tweaking and reading up on to get my box running so I could in fact actually start doing real production work on it, then the idea of doing a reinstall every 3 months or so might be an attractive idea, but unfortunately that strikes me as much more of a model to be used when you do not in fact do production work on the box.

The solution? rdiff-backup before each dist-upgrade. Once I figured out the major bugs with rdiff, which was an experience in itself, I've found it's simple and fast to just run a small script that backs up the whole system in a few minutes.

then dist-upgrade. If major issues, restore, which also doesn't take long, then wait until the sid pool functions again.

This stuff can all be done easily through some small shell scripts, a backup partition, or hard drive, and a second install, at least, to test the upgrade on initially, or to restore from if required. I have 3 installs of kanotix on my box, so there's lots to play and test with.

Personally, and this may put me in a minority opinion, I have always believed, and more so with each passing year, that reinstalling the operating system to upgrade it [does this begin to ring bells out there to anyone, maybe you've heard this somewhere? where, let me think, oh, I remember now, it's on every incompetent tech support for windows call or forum you'll see] is not acceptable for a production box. For standard network installs, definitely, for average users who do very little customizations, sure, but for real work? No, sorry, it takes me weeks, maybe a month, to really get a box tweaked the way I like it to be, and need it to be for real work.

It doesn't matter if the box is running windows or linux, it's all the same. Clearly, with debian unstable, you need to take precautions, but to me, inability to keep the system upgraded is directly equal to failure of that system to run the way I need it to run. This applies to mac os x, windows, or linux. Reinstalling is not an acceptable option in my opinion, and if it proves to be necessary, which I'm very happy to say is not the case with kanotix, all my 2005-4's are fine, all upto date as of I think about 10 days ago, though there are some components I'm going to stop updating once I get around to it, apache, mysql for example, no need there.

But everything else is too buggy re the software to not keep up with the latest versions, small things, big things, I want the newest stuff. One day, when I reach the viewpoint of al3, I believe that debian testing will be so solid that I will simply step off the merrygo round altogether, and just switch to testing, or ideally, stable, and stop thinking about these issues. That time is very close, I'd guess once kde 4 stabilizes and is in testing.

It's also fairly obvious that if any linux distro wants to achieve long term success as a real desktop os this reinstall philosophy needs to be dumped completely. Average users should be able to expect a 5 year life cycle, at least 3 years. And that will happen, I have no doubt about that, no average user wants to reinstall their os just to keep updated, I like it, it's fun, and very educational, and the kanotix guys so far are doing a great job making it possible to not have to reinstall, which is probably the number one reason I'm using kanotix in the first place. But I look somewhat longingly at testing, and stable beyond it, the days of reading irc etc to see if stuff is safe are finite, it's fantastic to learn, but absurd as a real practice if your time means anything to you.

anyway, great job kanotix team, you make this all possible, and you deserve a lot of credit for what you do.

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ice
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 22:33 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Feb 2005
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x-un-i hat folgendes geschrieben::

I dunno what kind a system you are running but didn't knew that runlevel 3 was single user mode

have you seen for instance that when the dist-upgrade updates a server programm it stops it?

i think it's advisable the user do the same with "his" running progs.


I posted a link to the Debian documentation where these things are explained to you in clear and no uncertain terms. Anyone can verify that the installation script works as described. You can use Synaptic to upgrade Synaptic, or upgrade KDE within KDE. The upgrade doesn't fail unless you do something stupid, like installing a broken core package when you should know better.

But maybe you are right and the Debian developers are wrong. In this case, your advice would be a lot more credible if you could back it up with something other than missing negatives and hearsay. Until then, it will remain a meaningless ritual like crossing your fingers or performing a magic dance.

Now, what is the application that fails if you upgrade in init 5, again?


Zuletzt bearbeitet von ice am 07.05.2006, 23:05 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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ice
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 22:40 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Feb 2005
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2radical hat folgendes geschrieben::
So I guess it would be safe then to add an extra step like this?

ctrl-alt-F1
login as root
init 3
apt-get upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade
init 5


I find it amusing that people advocate runlevel 3 for the sake of safety, then proceed to download all kind of radioactive stuff from an unstable repository Sehr glücklich
 
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ice
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 07.05.2006, 22:42 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Feb 2005
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al3 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Hey newbies! (Yeah, I mean YOU!). Are you using Kanotix for your every-day work as I do as well as my very expensive wife does? If so, LISTEN UP!

When you get a stable version of Kanotix from Kano, it is just THAT.... stable. It's stable as HELL! Solid. Kano is a great software engineer and he turns out production-quality distribution. It's part of his reputation (along with being able to drink a lot of beer!)

If your Kanotix works well, DO NOT UPGRADE OR DIST-UPGRADE at all... unless there is some major security issue or some must-have new feature for some package you use often (such as FireFox or OO2)... and in that case just upgrade the individual package (set).

People think that they are going to squeeze out one extra machine cycle and that they WILL NOTICE IT. Well most often it doesn't happen... and in some cases "fixing" one thing breaks another.

Don't get suckered into the "gotta be on the bleeding edge" mentality that often occurs in the Linux community. Let Kano, Slam, Miz, Jackie, Piper, Cuddles, Etorix, Chris, and a bunch of others be the "first in the water" with upgrades and if you just 'gotta' upgrade (it's a sickness... there should be a 12 step program for it!) wait until these good folks give their blessing. Just don't go off willy-nilly and start doing (dist) upgrades because you want to be 'cool.' One day you are going to do so and just end up being 'stupid.' Trust me. I've been in the software biz for 30 years now (I'm older than God) and I've been 'stupid', I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being new in Linux.

If it works... let it work... don't %$#@ with it.

Al


This should go in the wiki.
 
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homer911
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 08.05.2006, 00:05 Uhr



Anmeldung: 21. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 144
Wohnort: UK
init 3 kills off KDM/KDE (Ctrl+Alt+F1 then "init 3"
You can "apt-get dist-upgrade" or whatever without having to restart all your services.

Kanotix uses "KDM/KDE as normal GUI" so updating is easier.

YOU CAN DO IT AS A NORMAL USER.(using Synaptic / KPackage) but you might get problems Smilie
 
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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 08.05.2006, 01:00 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
Zitat:
I find it amusing that people advocate runlevel 3 for the sake of safety, then proceed to download all kind of radioactive stuff from an unstable repository


I'm not advocating anything, but am glad you find amusement in what I thought was a legit question. There are dozens of posts on the forum relating to upgrades. If it wasn't ok to do so, why all the encouragement & explanations to do so? I've found sid to be stable enough for my purposes, and I find it rather interesting that the tone here seems to be that one is less than smart if they decide to do so.

_________________
illegitimati non carborundum
 
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