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piper
Titel: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 17.06.2006, 12:06 Uhr
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Porky Vista Beta 2 Casts Doubt On Future Release Dates

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severin
Titel: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 17.06.2006, 14:22 Uhr



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Come on, I can't believe this is real. If it was, the guys quoted there would be getting a very hard time paying the compensations bestowed upon them by bill's lawyers

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Titel: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 17.06.2006, 15:10 Uhr
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Very interesting

http://blogs.msdn.com/philipsu/archive/ ... 31438.aspx

http://blogs.msdn.com/philipsu/archive/ ... 33507.aspx

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h2
Titel: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 18.06.2006, 21:01 Uhr



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severin, this isn't the first article I've read like this by an MS person. And of course, it's on blogs.msdn.com

Internally, MS is really really messed up, there's a reason Bill Gates announced his retirement in july 2008, and that he has immediately stepped down as chief software architect. And it's not, as he said in public, so 'he could focus on his philanthropic efforts'. Only the idiots over at webmasterworld believed that one.

Obviously the reason mister massive ego 'I am the greatest software architect of all time' Gates is removing himself is that every word of that blog posting is true, vista is a total disaster.

Zitat:
Is Vista merely uncontrolled? Or is it fundamentally uncontrollable? There is a critical difference.


This is worth thinking about. Large software projects can become uncontrollable, especially when the organization has started to decay. And imagine what that means long term: an uncontrollable os is a non-securable os.

Those 50 layers mean an almost infinite way for errors to creep in.

Slowly but surely the wisdom of modular design begins to shake the system. Even IIS was forced to be recoded, made modular, with text config files [sound familiar? It should, that's what apache has always been]. But now they've created a big entwined ball of code, that's what 98 and ME were, and it's why they had to dump them in the end, they were not fixable. And now they've done it again.
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 19.06.2006, 08:20 Uhr



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Well, I have downloaded and tried Vista and I can only share all the feelings expressed in that article. For instance it was enough to install the antivirus recommended by MS to totally fubar the system.
Is it any wonder? It has taken 5 years since its release for XP to become semi-stable, if at all.
The *big* mistake with Vista? They should have completely forgotten backwards compatibilty and start from scratch.
It has been proven once again that the only stable and reliable operating systems are the *nix ones.

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titan
Titel: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 19.06.2006, 10:16 Uhr



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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::

Internally, MS is really really messed up, there's a reason Bill Gates announced his retirement in july 2008.


MS would make a good study on how not to run a company. If you look at a lot of the worlds biggests companies and their demise they all follow the same pattern. Monopolistic control of their market, lack of inivitive ideas and products, closed mind thinking ,although the sales management bullshit could make you think different, increasingly disengaged workforce and poor management structure. Gates stepping down could be the best thing for MS's future. If they are brave enough to change direction they could still be a competitive force in the future there is no doubt they have the talent. I somehow think though they are a bit like a supertanker and take a bit of stopping or turning even if they are heading the wrong way.

Ian
 
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piper
Titel: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 19.06.2006, 15:40 Uhr
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titan hat folgendes geschrieben::
h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::

Internally, MS is really really messed up, there's a reason Bill Gates announced his retirement in july 2008.


MS would make a good study on how not to run a company. If you look at a lot of the worlds biggests companies and their demise they all follow the same pattern. Monopolistic control of their market, lack of inivitive ideas and products, closed mind thinking ,although the sales management bullshit could make you think different, increasingly disengaged workforce and poor management structure. Gates stepping down could be the best thing for MS's future. If they are brave enough to change direction they could still be a competitive force in the future there is no doubt they have the talent. I somehow think though they are a bit like a supertanker and take a bit of stopping or turning even if they are heading the wrong way.

Ian


Hmm..........we can start at .................

Microsoft the Company: The House Monopoly Built

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titan
Titel: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 19.06.2006, 21:05 Uhr



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[quote="piper"]
titan hat folgendes geschrieben::


Hmm..........we can start at .................

Microsoft the Company: The House Monopoly Built



I think we all know where they have come from, it is where they are heading that is more interesting. Windows could be much better and I think it is Gates personally that has been guiding the company the wrong way, things may change, I think they are quite aware of what is wrong and it is not beyond the realms of posibility that they could start producing products people want as opposed to being locked into using, which is what pisses most users off.

Ian
 
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piper
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 19.06.2006, 23:04 Uhr
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Kind of hard with a corporate monopoly Smilie

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titan
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 20.06.2006, 08:21 Uhr



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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Kind of hard with a corporate monopoly Smilie


MS are not immune to stockmarket pressure, they are a public company with their share price going the wrong way , if you and I can see what MS's problems are then so can most other people especially financial analysts , IBM restructured, MS will have to at some time. Gates stepping down is very significant. Of course at the moment they still have 80% of the worlds computers either through OEM or corporate sales but IT costs are being challenged as is open formating for documents , the way MS do business, and their very active involvement in DRM , there is a small but significant change taking place MS know for sure they have to change to survive long term and I think Gates going is the start of that process.
In the cold light of day what is Vista, a five year wait for an out of date OS that is fundamentally insecure and bug prone because of it's monolithic structure. Oh and expensive, memory hungry and you will probably have to upgrade hardware also. Who in their right mind would want to run such a system when there are alternative OSs superior in every way. If hardware manufacturers started working with Linux the move away from MS would accelerate but none want to be the first to step out of line but it will happen one day. And what are our elected representatives doing to make the market more competitive, sod all, if fact they appear to like the situation as it is and continue to profit financially from it. At least in Europe things are a little better.

Ian
 
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piper
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 20.06.2006, 18:28 Uhr
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I agree with alot you said, although a couple more besides Gates should step down and M$ should focus on the customers needs (will never happen), not M$'s, like DRM, calling home on every reboot, etc....they are destroying themselves...which is a good thing, what I have been seeing the past few years is that a windows user gets comfortable with windows for about 2-3 years and gets a clue to what is really going on, some take longer, and then, some that know but will defend to the end whether it is illegal or not. As far as stocks go which have been "stale" for sometime, (hmm, did they go up when XP cameout?) You have to innovate, something M$ just does not know how to do, sure, they have the market share, but what good is that if it don't do nothing for the shareholders. I used to be one of M$'s biggest fans, but after windows 98, things started changing (atleast for me) I started to see that they (M$) don't care about the custumers but HOW much $$$ they can get (chisel) from the custumor. Yes EVERY business does that and that is the purpose to MAKE money, but M$................

I am probably just babbling on about nothing I know about and just say I hate M$, I hate that they own the computer of the user, I hate the way they do business, I hate the way they lie, steal, cheat and then Bill steps down and is called GOD (god even before stepping down). No-one has morals anymore, no-one cares how they got to be #1 was 95 % against the law, but it was M$ innovation that changed the world as we know it.

I think it's time I shut my mouth now before I blow a hemorrhoid

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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 20.06.2006, 21:37 Uhr



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If you read through most of those links, you'll find that MS does in fact deeply care about their big customers, the problem is that you aren't a big customer, and neither is any other home user.

I read some vista reviews, and that was one thing that stuck in my mind, features that will affect home users negatively but that are primarily designed for large scale networks of windows machines.

MS has consistently not innovated very much, they have either bought technology from someone else, or they have copied/stolen it.

And when they have tried to innovate the outcome has been questionable.

What MS, or any other large scale corporation, is about, by LAW, is maximizing shareholder value. That's it, period, end of story. Everything else is just babble and happy talk. This means generate the highest profits possible using whatever means necessary, including the calculation of potential fine/penalty versus potential profit from some action. If the scales tip in favor of profit, they do what's required. And always have.

What was really interesting about these articles was the view into the large scale corporate programming world. I've seen some of that indirectly, and it's always completely repulsed me.

The expected lines programmed per year output per programmer was also very interesting, it's radically less than you would expect.

But the numbers are what will kill MS 50 million lines of code is just too much to every get a grip on.

Again, it wasn't MS innovation that changed the world, it was MS business practices, primarily crushing any potential opposition on every step of their way. The personal computer was going to spread no matter what, but it could have spread differently, with open standards between platforms leading the way, and the platform itself, which is MS main emphasis, becoming far less relevant. That's where we are heading anyway, that's what companies like ebay, google, yahoo, etc, are all about.

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piper
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 20.06.2006, 22:32 Uhr
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If you read through most of those links, you'll find that MS does in fact deeply care about their big customers, the problem is that you aren't a big customer, and neither is any other home user.

I read some vista reviews, and that was one thing that stuck in my mind, features that will affect home users negatively but that are primarily designed for large scale networks of windows machines.

MS has consistently not innovated very much, they have either bought technology from someone else, or they have copied/stolen it.

And when they have tried to innovate the outcome has been questionable.

What MS, or any other large scale corporation, is about, by LAW, is maximizing shareholder value. That's it, period, end of story. Everything else is just babble and happy talk. This means generate the highest profits possible using whatever means necessary, including the calculation of potential fine/penalty versus potential profit from some action. If the scales tip in favor of profit, they do what's required. And always have.

What was really interesting about these articles was the view into the large scale corporate programming world. I've seen some of that indirectly, and it's always completely repulsed me.

The expected lines programmed per year output per programmer was also very interesting, it's radically less than you would expect.

But the numbers are what will kill MS 50 million lines of code is just too much to every get a grip on.

Again, it wasn't MS innovation that changed the world, it was MS business practices, primarily crushing any potential opposition on every step of their way. The personal computer was going to spread no matter what, but it could have spread differently, with open standards between platforms leading the way, and the platform itself, which is MS main emphasis, becoming far less relevant. That's where we are heading anyway, that's what companies like ebay, google, yahoo, etc, are all about.


Again you have hit the nail on the head Smilie nice post

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michael7
Titel: Gary Kildall  BeitragVerfasst am: 21.06.2006, 00:20 Uhr



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When I teach the beginning IT class at the local community college, I discuss Gary Kildall's contributions at length. The first exam always has a question about Gary. I don't want that man to be forgotten.

Remember Gary Kildall.
http://www.cadigital.com/kildall.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall

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Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 21.06.2006, 01:20 Uhr



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Well, as far as MacroSnot goes, I think a picture is worth a thousand words. Linking to Snopes rather than the pic itself but please check it out.

Yes, I would have invested in them had I the opportunity back then. I think today they are just as much likely to be the faces of some Open Source enthusiasts LOL

http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/microsoft.asp

Hind sight is 20/20?
 
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titan
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 21.06.2006, 09:38 Uhr



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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::

What MS, or any other large scale corporation, is about, by LAW, is maximizing shareholder value. That's it, period, end of story. Everything else is just babble and happy talk. This means generate the highest profits possible using whatever means necessary, including the calculation of potential fine/penalty versus potential profit from some action. If the scales tip in favor of profit, they do what's required. And always have.



I think this is scary if it is a typical American business plan but then you have some good examples of this ,Enron,Union Carbide (Phopal) Ford (Pinto fuel tanks) Occidental Petroleum Corporation ( Piper Alpha) and plenty more. At least MS haven't killed anyone yet. Staying in business should also be part of the plan, dificult to make a profit from prison. Good business ethics was thankfully a large part of the culture within the mutinational I worked for.
The sole reason for my post was not to defend MS or their criminal business practices but to point out that at some stage they will need to change to survive. They are being challenged from diferent sides and within and I was speculating that maybe Gates going is the start of this process, a change at the top is quite often a sign of this. If you look at their core business it could be split into three , servers, where they are strongly challenged by Unix/Linux, the home/soho market, forcing computer manufactures to install Windows as OEM is a big plus for MS here should be made illegal and enforced but will it happen, not while we have corrupt politicians. Finally they have their golden goose the corporate desktop, a difficult market to penetate although Novell and Red Hat try but until Linux gets its act together with full integration between distros that want to be in this market progress is slow. The internet is probably their biggest threat
I can,t see the MS board saying everything is fine business as usual we will just charge more for out of date software. I would love to see their 5 and 10 year plans. I just cannot see MS existing in its current form in 10 years time.

Ian
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Porky Vista Beta 2  BeitragVerfasst am: 21.06.2006, 23:29 Uhr



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The blog I, Cringely, http://www.pbs.org/cringely/archive/ deserves some careful reading about significant trends in the industry at the moment, the last few month's postings have been especially relevant to all this.

Think IBM and mainframes switching to desktops and MS switching to a web of platform independent systems like google etc. The latter is I think being labelled web 2.0 in typical silly naming manner.

But the underlying idea is there, platforms, IE windows or mac or kde or gnome, will become less important. That's why all the big money went to google even though it's totally irrational in terms of stock pricing and company valuation etc, just like it was back in '95 with MS.

MS is going to do just what ibm did, they are already doing it. The whole vista thing sort of shows that. Objectively, there was no need for Vista at all, XP is decent, if made more secure, it's good enough, which is the MS niche.

But MS can't generate 30% ongoing profits by just refining an adequate OS, they need the next must have, which Vista was supposed to be but won't become. As usual, gradually the newer stuff will only run on vista, forcing developers and users to either move to mac, linux, or to vista. Mac is not I think going anywhere either, it is what it is, hasn't gained any market share to speak of in 5 years, despite the talk.

Until Linux desktop stabilizes their programming APIs, and stops the random upgrade cycle it currently is using, it won't take major desktop market share either. I really enjoy watching the process on debian sid, it's amazing to realize that in order to install the smallest new version of some application at times you need to fully upgrade every package of your desktop. Mac and Ubuntu and most commercial linuxes are just artificially freezing this process into about 18 month blocks, far less than the 5 years cycle home users and corporate desktops like. We'll see how that goes.

MS didn't make any real move, the new chief architect is one of their own, no changes to be expected from that direction. They have totally failed on any significant web 2.0 type initiative, whether it's their largely abandoned 'passport' thing, their largely frozen 'MSIE' thing, their MSN portal, their MSN search engine, all have been remarkably equal in result: poor to mediocre at best. MS has not, does not, and I think, will never, understand the web. MS likes proprietary formats that lock in users to their platforms, it's the way it is. They can't change, just like ibm couldn't change from the monopoly mainframe markets they used to enjoy. Eventually ibm did try, with some success, to link to newer stuff like linux, but their current state makes it less than clear if this strategy has been successful or not.

All these old school vendors, apple, ms, ibm, sun, are more or less doing different versions of the same thing. The true promise of web 2 etc is found in things like debian's apt stuff for example, at least in my opinion. Google actually runs a somewhat similar version of this type of distributed system, that's more or less how they run their datacenters, except with proprietary methods over closed circuits.

Saying MS must do this or that ignores the absolutely dismal state of US corporations. Currently many of the biggest ones, like general motors, are all falling victim to the same disease, caused by years of focusing on quarterly results, and consistent failure to sacrifice short term gain for long term stability and success. Enron etc are just the most spectacular examples of this process, it's been happening here for years, huge corporations are wasting their employee's pension plans on speculative investment schemes, then going to the government for bail outs. That's the same government that us conservatives are so fond of criticizing as an impediment to investment and growth, but so quick to run to when they won't or can't clean up their own financial messes.

If you want to see how to destroy a country's economy over a few decades, simply follow the us model. Our real standard of living has been in steady decline since the 1970's here, in real terms of cost of living etc.

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