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aking469
Titel: Linux Desktop--I must be crazy  BeitragVerfasst am: 10.07.2006, 14:01 Uhr



Anmeldung: 14. Feb 2006
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I keep reading that Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Funny, I seem to be running it just fine. I keep writing these compliments on this site and am beginning to sound like a broken record. I spent 2 hours last night getting my wife's XP box to get rid of spyware. Cannot believe how much get on it in such a short time.

Kanotix has run on my desktop w/o hardly a blip now for more than 6 months. I have not booted into windows for manya day. I couldn't be more thrilled with Kanotix/Linux if I tried.

Thanks again....no viruses, no spyware, no activation... Lachen
 
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mzilikazi
Titel: RE: Linux Desktop--I must be crazy  BeitragVerfasst am: 10.07.2006, 17:25 Uhr
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aking469, Welcome fellow Penguinista!

Please bear in mind that the people who make those sort of statements about Linux not being usable as a desktop OS have probably never actually used a Linux desktop and simply parrot what they read in their favorite tech magazine. Or, if they did use Linux it was just one time and it wasn't exactly like windows so that of course means it's wrong! Winken

The easiest people to teach to use Linux are those people that have no preconcieved notion of how a desktop should behave or what a desktop should look like. The little old ladies are my favorite people to teach about Linux. They are usually very eager and quick learners. On a few occasions I have even been told "I tried to use my son's windows computer but it was just too hard to understand."

Linux is and has been more than suitable for the desktop for many years now. I personally have no need for windows and have not had for 6+ years except @ work where I need it for one single application that barely runs on win32 let alone anything else. If my employer were not so cheap we'd be using something that was not designed for win98. Auf den Arm nehmen Alot of people fit this category and cannot yet switch because of a windows only app they might need or maybe it's the simple fact that people don't like to change. Glad you're enjoying Linux (on the desktop) even tho that's impossible. Smilie

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aking469
Titel: Crazy though I am  BeitragVerfasst am: 10.07.2006, 21:08 Uhr



Anmeldung: 14. Feb 2006
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I have even found some success using Wine....errr the program not the drink. I have been able to load a few programs that are no longer available anywhere, regardless of operating system.

I read somewhere that it is inertia that keeps people from changing. It seems to be true. I work with a guy who is a computer genius. He even tells the IT guys how to fix their problems or he just hacks around the security and fixes it himself. Yet, he refuses to even try anything beyond windows 2000. I've given him a number of Live CDs to try...nada. If someone like him is intimidated, what is the hope for anyone else. Yet, they like he complain bitterly about spyware, viruses, crashes, etc. I cannot convince anyone.....poor salesman I guess.

I am thrilled with my Linux experience. It has freed me from constant worry. I started with Red Hat 7 (that was almost the end of the deal right there), then Xandros 2.0...2.5...3.0, MEPIS, SUSE, finally Kanotix. Once I got the basics down I have been able to figure out most things, with the help of forum experts and such.

I do agree with some others though, I do not believe that Linux will ever have a huge place in the market until it come preloaded at Best Buy. People around here seldom change the oil in their cars, let alone mess around with operating systems.....Frage

But most of the people I come in contact with are amazed at my laptop....which isn't the latest model and doesn't seem to be bothered by much. They are amazed that something else exists, but won't even give it a try...like a starving man who refuses to eat broccoli.
Lachen
 
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HK-47
Titel: RE: Crazy though I am  BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 00:23 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Jun 2006
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personally, i think that linux is ready for mainstream desktop use. the only real problem is that it's still a bit of a pain to set up, especially with certain hardware.
 
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hubi
Titel: RE: Crazy though I am  BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 00:54 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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Wohnort: Budapest
Well, I think it is. Just will see, when I meet an old mate end of July, and he has a dual-boot installation of SuSE and XP, and he does not use SuSE, because he is unable to connect his provider (gosh, I will do that for him again Sehr glücklich).

And he is really the total anti-user: he just wants the thing to run, and yes: he had viruses as well already - kind of very intelligent but no idea about technical things type of person.

The only thing is: the last time I was not able to set up his bankcard-reader, but in Debian there are packages for that, and there is a commercial product in Germany specialised on SuSE for just doing that.

Don't know what I will do. I tend more to a conservative setup like SuSE or Kubuntu, although he knows SuSE and the KDE by now and likes it. When I get his bankcard-reader going (well, I think I can get him into Arcor-DSL) and his Canon printer going (well, maybe Kanotix?), then he is in Linux:

- OOo for writing and creating PDFs
- Gimp for picture manipulation
- Banking

That's what he needs, and he would really be happy not being threatened by viruses anymore ("well, I thought this mail might have come from "the Jeff" from Glasgow" ... it was not ...).

If my old mate is going Linux, then everybody can do it.

hubi

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JimC
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 01:07 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Mar 2005
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I'll be frank....

The only Distribution that I've ever tried that I thought was "ready for the desktop" from an average user perspective (not a PC guru or someone that wants to dig into Wikis or try to find help on forums) is SimplyMEPIS 3.3.2,

Then, only IF you don't have brand new hardware (as in the *only* printers and wireless cards you can find at your local office supply stores, since new models come out often)., and I've tried a LOT of distros over the past couple of years, just to see how easy it would be to get everything I needed working, without resorting to "jumping through hoops".

Even with the easy installer in SimplyMEPIS, you'd need a basic understanding of disk partitions to feel comfortable installing it.

With those that do work with the hardware, you've still got the issues of installing the players and codecs that Windows users are accustomed to.

I'm running under Kanotix 2006-easter-rc4 right this minute (installled it a few days ago, after not trying any new releases in a while). But, IMO, Linux just isn't *there* yet for most home users that don't know a lot about PCs, and don't want to know a lot about them (other than to use common appliations like internet browsing, word processing, etc.).

If Linux was preinstalled the way Windows XP is on hardware, that would change things (and I understand that you can buy hardware that way from some larger vendors now).

But, most Linux distros seem to have at least some kind of "show stopper" that prevents everything a user needs from working without manual intervention (media on web sites visited, printer support, wireless support, etc.).

Please don't take this post wrong, as I really would like to see Linux succeed,. But, for the mass market (average Windows users), it's got a little ways to go yet.

Perhaps Linspire, etc., may be even better than most. I have never tried that one (although I have tried a bunch of supposedly easy to get working Linux distros, even including Xandros).

Suse doesn't even "cut the mustard", despite the fact that it's "Eval" version with non-free software is more polished than most (because apparently they deliberately crippled some applications, making it even harder to get some things working compared to the "Open Source" version). That's absurd.

I've switched multiple friends and relatives to SimplyMEPIS 3.x, because it was a solution that actually "worked", without needing to resort to any command line utilities, need to start up services for printers, find correct drivers for wireles cards, track down needed codecs for media on web sites visted, etc.. But, even newer versions of SimplyMEPIS have too many show stoppers (and I see that there is controversy over how Warren Woodford is handling publication of source code for binaries used in SimplyMEPIS).

I think Linux *can* get to where it's "ready for the desktop" for average Windows users, and I think (and hope) it *will* get to where it's ready for the desktop for average Windows users.

But, it's still lacking in some areas for the average home PC user that doesn't want to learn anything about installing an operating system via selecting the right repositories, installiing codecs from questionable sources, etc. They just want it to work (or if it doesn't work, click on a menu choice to get it working).

Most of you probably take it for granted how PCs work, and don't think twice about using command line utilities, etc. But, that's not the typical home PC user (at least not yet, but the younger generation is growing up fast).

Edit/Added:

This was not intended to be a "troll" post, although I can see how some people might take it that way.

Users of any product tend to be offended and defensive when someone points out weaknesses.

My intent was to point out areas that need improvement, and I'm trying not to "sugar coat" it, and I want give an honest opinion (which may be offensive to some).

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 01:56 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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JimC,. while sympathetic to your point of view, it makes a few mistakes. First of which is fairly major: almost no home users, the mystical 'average user', installs windows xp on their machine. This is not a trivial difference, since what you are describing is the process of installing the os on the box, then setting it up for daily use. Almost no average users either could do that, or would do that, whether with windows or with linux.

For those of us who do install it, it's a roughly 3 hour process from beginning to end, with probably upwards of between 10 and 20 reboots in the process.

And nothing works until we've installed the motherboard drivers, the graphics drivers, the networking drivers, and so on. Some stuff will work out of the box with xp, but not a lot. And you can't count on it.

Installing printers and scanners in xp can be very problematic as well if it doesn't go right the first time. If you've never read the 'how to fix a broken printer install' on say hp.com this might not be common knowledge, but fixing that kind of thing is not trivial.

Since there are basically no realistic ready to go linux desktops out there at the moment, no genuine comparison between the two setups can really be made.

After the initial install is done on xp, you still have to add a workable antivirus, update it, usually with repeated reboots. And then you have, what? An operating system with some antivirus stuff on it, a bad web browsers, a bad email client, and that's about it.

Proceed to next step: install and pay for software.

After you've done that, you're basically at where you'd be with an average kanotix install.

I agree that the kde or gnome desktop based linuxes are not really totally ready for the mass market, why should they be, look at their users!

The only OS out there I would consider as a useable desktop in most ways, including the ones you mentioned, would be a mac with os x and the latest upgrades etc installed, if by useable you mean that most things most users will want working will be working right out of the box.

I can get into the various linux desktop weaknesses and issues, but an unfortunate number of them simply boil down to proprietary data formats, like wmv, pdf with features kpdf doesn't support yet, flash 8 and 9 when it comes, proprietary .doc etc formats for word documents, active x controlled sites, and so on.

If you've never read the halloween documents from microsoft, you should. When MS started realizing that software and oses were approaching commodity status, they explicitly decided to resist this by creating proprietary windows only data formats, that other commercial oses like os x could also deliver to the end user since they can include the licensing fees in the overall cost of the software and os.

But despite all this, I still agree, it's harder often to get stuff that isn't working right working in linux than it is in windows or mac. That's what happens when an os has such a small market share. That all changes as market share grows. Currently, linux of course reflects more the needs of its actual users than of some non existing average user, with the exception of gnome's **censored** attempt to cater to their idea of that 'average user', but even that simply moves simple configuration stuff into complex text only, config file regions that few if any average users will ever go to, thus essentially nullifying a big chunk of the overall 'easy to use' idea gnome pushes.

It's a complicated question, personally, I like having different desktops out there, mac os x for users who just want it to more or less work, and are happy to pay someone for that, windows users, who just want to be able to install anything any time, including spyware viruses, etc, and linux users, who tend to want to be able to control their boxes more than the average user would want to do. And some average users, the really average ones, who never touch their box after they buy it, never install anything, never upgrade parts, etc, will in fact be served very well by a good linux box that is already setup for their use by someone or some company.

A lot of the codecs and stuff you take for granted are actually paid for by end user transparent schemes, mp3 playback for example, that's not free, all players out there on commercial systems pay for that, even though the end user might not realize that the company has paid for that. So obviously, at some point, for home users, they need to buy their average linux desktops from someone who can pay for these licenses, which means the desktop has to be commercial for those users who can't do the stuff themselves.

No surprise there, it's the same thing as os x or windows in that way. If you want convience, you have to pay for it. No essentially free linux desktop can do that, that's why they don't do it, ubuntu, open suse, fedora, etc.

When the demand is there then desktops like you think are necessary will be delivered, it's just a simple matter of economics, and of the linux kde/gnome stuff maturing a bit in terms of overall stability and consistency.

Plus of course, installing software via an apt based system like kanotix is radically easier than installing it by the standard process on windows: buy cd, or download from site, type in serial number, click ok a bunch of times, watch it install a bunch of junk you didn't want.

Or apt-get install <my program>

Only a died in the wool windows user could consider the windows way of installing software easier than apt, apt is the strongest thing out there for package management I've seen, it blows the other models out of the water.

It's only when it's not apt installable that the windows method tends to work better, vmware comes to mind for example.

PS: your post is not trolling, not remotely close, you're just stating things as you see them. Some people call that trolling, but that makes for a pretty pathetic dialogue if you ban all viewpoints that don't fully concur with your own biases a priori.

Personally, I see a platform like debian as my reward for learning enough about computers to take advantage of its strengths, I don't want average consumer desktop linux to become commonplace, and I don't think it will. I would like to see the high end users move more to linux though, so we could break through that development barrier that keeps some linux apps below the quality they should be, after a certain percentage, or market share, you get enough bright programmers working on your platform of choice to make this stuff not matter, the linux desktop is not quite at that critical point yet, but it's getting very very close. My guess is that 1% or so real world full time desktop users would be enough.


Zuletzt bearbeitet von h2 am 11.07.2006, 02:07 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 02:06 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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JimC hat folgendes geschrieben::
If Linux was preinstalled the way Windows XP is on hardware, that would change things (and I understand that you can buy hardware that way from some larger vendors now).


Well, a majority of users are not able:

- to add a restricted user to XP
- to give the F8-Admin a password in OEM-XP-Home

Most users are not able to install a Windows XP and set it up, not to mention set it up that it is safe. If they do not have the drivers from the hardware vendors, they are lost.

Like my good old friend: everything has to be done for him. So I will be the guy who sets him up a Linux that works. And still: I am quite convinced I can set up a Linux box that is working to his liking. And I do not want to diss SuSE, it's great, when you got the right setup, and you can leave it. Most updates do not change the settings. It's no joy-ride, but it's no rodeo neither.

But you are right: pre-installed Linux boxes with lovely default settings might change the market situation. Maybe a few more people would try it.

hubi

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 02:09 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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Oh, and I could go on with the default windows xp install issues: set the overall permissions to correct ones, not the default 'everyone' group with full access to everything. No users know how to do that, and almost all windows out there were delivered with that incorrect permission level for as long as I can remember.

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JimC
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 02:11 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Mar 2005
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Maybe I should have been clearer on my attitude. The average PC user buys Windows preinstalled.

So, the problem is *changing* to another desktop OS.

That's one of the reasons I said this:

Zitat:
If Linux was preinstalled the way Windows XP is on hardware, that would change things (and I understand that you can buy hardware that way from some larger vendors now).


So, let me rephrase things... If we want to get more users to *change* to Linux, there are some issues that will need to be addressed (or else, get more hardware suppliers to offer Linux preinstalled).

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 02:24 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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Don't get me wrong here, I actually agree with you in many ways, I dont' think that linux is for everyone, and I don't think it should be sold that way. That's already happened a few times over the last years, and all it results in is many people getting annoyed and not liking linux.

The fact of the matter is, as a few other posters have alluded to, linux is more than ready for the desktop if you're ready for linux. That's the real consideration and question. It's the users that should be ready for linux in my opinion. They should understand that free software is not the same as commercial software. Hordes of annoyed pc users who really want windows but who ended up with linux are not going to do anyone out there any good, that's already been tried, and it didn't work, it's a bad idea.

It's much better to pursue a mac style strategy, focus on your strengths, build from bases where you already are well established [you know, the old art of war type strategy...]. The linux strength par excellence is its attraction of really great hackers, networking hackers, programmer hackers, hardware hackers. That's what pushes it, and that's what should drive its progress, not trying to satisfy some corporate desktop purchaser's idea of what makes a 'good os'. We already have a working prototype of that model, it's called windows xp, that's what corporate users want, that's why it is the way it is.

Being 'ready for linux' can mean many different things: it can be your grandmother who is afraid of her banking information getting lifted by a trojan she cannot ever learn enough about windows to prevent its installation; it can be a serious programmer who is sick of all the windows garbage, it can be someone who just wants to be able to get into the os and tweak it to his/her heart's content.

It can be me, who just installed 3 working versions of msie, 5, 5.5, and 6, by running a single command after grabbing ies4linux.

It can be a corporate networking IT team who knows how to take advantage of running networks of linux desktops, they know how to script everything they need done, etc, and they know how much work and money this will save their company over time. Not all companies, and not all IT people, just the ones who are ready for it, and need what it has to offer.
 
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JimC
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 02:38 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Mar 2005
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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::

[snip]
It can be me, who just installed 3 working versions of msie, 5, 5.5, and 6, by running a single command after grabbing ies4linux.


Yes, I saw the posts you made about it. My wife hasn't griped about missing newer Flash Player versions lately. So, I'm not positive I want to confuse things by having her use IE for some sites and Firefox for others. Smilie

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michael7
Titel: Would it even be a contest?  BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 03:03 Uhr



Anmeldung: 24. Mai 2005
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Wohnort: Nashville
If Linux came preinstalled on computers and hardware vendors wrote drivers for Linux, would it even be a contest? Sehr glücklich

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aking469
Titel: Rewards!!!!  BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 03:08 Uhr



Anmeldung: 14. Feb 2006
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H2...couldn't have said that better myself. Kanotix IS my reward for learning this much about computers. I agree that creating a Linux experience the way you want it can take some self-education and research, but the rewards are great. I do believe that most Linux users are not "mainstream" and we shouldn't assume that we are. I do not play games on the computer...save Chess through Yahoo, and cannot fathom having that much free time on my hands. Further, I do recognize that many, nay most, people do play those games...witness how many aisles of games you find at Worst Buy, Circuit **ity, Cramp USA, etc. Lachen If most people didn't play, the games wouldn't be there. For those of us who enjoy a challenge Linux awaits. For those who prefer to remain oblivious....the Window is open.
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 06:49 Uhr
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It doesn't suprise me that the "computer genius" doesn't want to know about linux, aking. That's because he isn't a computer expert, he's a windows expert. There's a huge difference.
I was similarly reluctant to first use linux because I had invested so much time into learning the M$ way over the years and none of my knowledge was useful. However, I like to learn new things so it was just a matter of time before I had the time to do it. Years of putting up with M$ crap certainly provided motivation. Anybody remember the extended/expanded memory fiasco we had to deal with for all those years?
As MZ said, new computer users don't have this culture shock to deal with.

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t-bone
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 07:32 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Sep 2005
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I have been running Kanotix for just about a year now...installed 03.2005 version, tweaked it to my liking and now, compared to XP, it is bombproof! I rarely use XP now and I could not be happier with Kanoitix, even after trying every other Linux distribution under the sun. Sehr glücklich

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 09:04 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
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Well, I don't think most pc users are ready for the Linux desktop. Over the years they have been trained to not think, but clicking "OK" instead of reading and deciding. They have been trained to pay "some" money for a box that "somehow" works. If it stops working, they again pay "some" money for getting it fixed by "experts". Or they ask a friend/relative to fix it for free, which is always a good reason to meet and talk about other things. "Fixing your pc" has become the social event of our century.

The average person today never actually grew up - most of them are still nasty children, just too big. They ask for more fun, more sugar and other oral amusements. What do you expect those slaves to understand/decide/oversee - ?

They have been trained to believe that the world out there is dangerous and only father Bush and uncle Gates can protect them against all those terrorists/hackers/id-takers. Why should they change their mind?

I am very pessimistic about the future of the average world-user. We can do our best to educate our children different, and help the few grown-ups in their efforts, but I guess too much time is wasted already.

Greetings,
Chris

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Roughnecks
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 10:10 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Dez 2004
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don't be so pessimistic. the world is big and north america / europe not the only places. developing third world countries have a different attitude to deal with things, and they have a different attitude to pay "some" money to "someone" to make "something" work "somehow". and i think they will be very successfull during the coming 20-30 years. this will have a great effect on the "grown old" societies and economies in NA/EU, imho. it has to, otherwise the real information age will take place in africa/asia only.

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aking469
Titel: Windows Expert  BeitragVerfasst am: 11.07.2006, 13:03 Uhr



Anmeldung: 14. Feb 2006
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CatchBard...while you are right he is a Windows expert, I myself was not a complete slouch. You can probably hear the screaming now from my coworkers, friends, family, etc, when I suggested changes to the registry....eeeegggaaad. I, like most of you, shut down, shut off, and changed most everything. My XP box was one of the "quietest" M$ boxes around, but still it didn't settle down completely w/o third party anti-virus/spyware software. I was very thankful for Grisoft, Spybot, etc making their software freeware. But, I couldn't convince my coworkers nor family members that these were good programs, because they were free. We have lost our collective minds, when we cannot fathom the value of something simply based on a LACK of cost.... Frage The final nail in the M$ coffin for me was reactivation, and slow downs. I made some changes to my desktop computer and Windows wanted me to reactivate...huh? I was fortunate that I had recovery disks from IBM and simply restored the OS. But, I did see the hand writing on the wall....at some point I could have made enough changes and they would want more money....ain't happening. Further, XP didn't multitask the way Linux does. I cannot believe how many things my computer does at once now. Because I have dial-up, dinosaur that I am, sometimes I have to be patient for things to load, but I can do other things in the meantime. Same with copying CDs/DVDs....try that in XP. I feel like the promise of the computer that I bought years ago is finally being realized. Thanks to Linus, Kano, and all the rest.
 
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t-bone
Titel: RE: Windows Expert  BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 07:14 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Sep 2005
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I know an IT director in a major European company who has tried and enjoyed Linux thanks to my help. He know has it installed on his personal laptop, and uses it often. He is now trying to get his company to start using OpenOffice, instead of the MS suite, and admits that for personal use, Linux is marvelous. However, he also thinks that on the enterprise level, Linux is not ready yet because most custom applications are only based on Microsoft.

It is a good beginning, though! Sehr glücklich

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titan
Titel: RE: Windows Expert  BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 09:13 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Mai 2005
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These whole Windows - Linux threads are really quite pointless. I am no expert but it would not take long to get any of the more popular Linux distros working as I would like. They are all crippled to some extent by copyright issues and lack of hardware support. Windows has all of these but is still crippled. I don,t want the masses to adopt Linux I am happy that it is used by those that choose to use it. As for Meppis or should that be Mebuntis where are they going they seem to have lost the plot. I had forgotten how crap Windows is/was . I had to download a hex loader for a satallite tuner only available in Windows, I have on old pc with Win 98 but when I flashed it up there was a script error in IE I reloaded 98 but the error was still there,and you can,t add/ remove IE it wouldn,t let me download the prog I wanted so I tried to download Firefox but this just crashed IE I tried four times from different sites. In the end I downloaded Opera which is very nice in Windows. After I got my prog downloaded it was zipped, no inbuilt facility in win 98 so I had to download Winzip ,trial copy as it is propriatory software, two hours wasted. For anyone with half a brain Linux is far better than any MS product, yes it has problems, although most of these are not of it's own making. As Slam intimated most of the Western modern generation want thing on a plate with little effort but China is soon to overtake the USA as the worlds biggest economy and computing is an essential tool, do you think they will need Bill Gates and propriatory software, no way, ODF is the first step and open source is the way forward. Your original point about desktop ready distros I think Mandriva comes with all the multimedia software installed, however corporate desktops are where the money is and they generally dont need this which means Novell and Red Hat are desktop ready in the market that matters.

Ian
 
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SaberBlaze
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 10:13 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jun 2006
Beiträge: 49

I think that Linux has been well received in third world countries, especially since they can't afford to buy the latest hardware, and the latest version of Windows doesn't work great on old stuff.

Now, it would be great if Linux does become mainstream and is preinstalled and has better hardware support etc. However, I sometimes think that a Linux Desktop is better for loners. My resoning? The multi-user system might work great in schools and businesses, for example, because the students/workers don't need admin privileges to do what they need to do. They can perfectly work fine because they do not need to be installing software or changing system settings and the like. Now, if a family or group of friends shared a computer, there are the issues of privacy. Whoever is the root user can see everything, period (or somebody uses a livecd and then everybody's screwed). Now, I see no problem if, for example, it is just the parents and their young kids using it. The parents just have to watch over what their young kids are doing. But when the kid gets older, he will want his/her parents to respect their privacy. Also, for a lot of things, you need the root password. So if somebody wants to install some game or something, they have to keep asking whoever is the root user to supply the password over and over again. I guess the way to bypass some of these problems is by making the users part of certain groups, but that increases the chances of maybe something screwing up.

So, is this user problem as big as I'm making out to be? Does anyone here share a linux desktop with anyone? Thanks.
 
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mzilikazi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 13:25 Uhr
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SaberBlaze hat folgendes geschrieben::
I think that Linux has been well received in third world countries, especially since they can't afford to buy the latest hardware, and the latest version of Windows doesn't work great on old stuff.

Now, it would be great if Linux does become mainstream and is preinstalled and has better hardware support etc. However, I sometimes think that a Linux Desktop is better for loners. My resoning? The multi-user system might work great in schools and businesses, for example, because the students/workers don't need admin privileges to do what they need to do. They can perfectly work fine because they do not need to be installing software or changing system settings and the like. Now, if a family or group of friends shared a computer, there are the issues of privacy. Whoever is the root user can see everything, period (or somebody uses a livecd and then everybody's screwed). Now, I see no problem if, for example, it is just the parents and their young kids using it. The parents just have to watch over what their young kids are doing. But when the kid gets older, he will want his/her parents to respect their privacy. Also, for a lot of things, you need the root password. So if somebody wants to install some game or something, they have to keep asking whoever is the root user to supply the password over and over again. I guess the way to bypass some of these problems is by making the users part of certain groups, but that increases the chances of maybe something screwing up.

So, is this user problem as big as I'm making out to be? Does anyone here share a linux desktop with anyone? Thanks.


You seem to miss the real point.

If you have access to a machine it can be compromised no mater what OS it runs. You run windows, I boot a Linux cd, I have access to anything I want including resetting your Admin password and locking you out of your own box. There is no security if someone has access to a system period. BIOS passwords can be cracked too so you can't stop me from booting a cd.

A properly secured windows box would not allow users to install software either. That's exactly why windows pc's are so vulnerable in the first place - the default user is Admin and nobody thinks it's important to change that. Everyone logs in as Admin and people think that's ok! because microstupid told everyone it was. Well keep your bad computing habits and continue to enjoy all the benefits of spyware, malware, etc etc. This is a well known and long standing problem w/ Windows.

If you want to share a linux desktop you could keep your personal /home dir on a USB stick and then it would be private (as long as you removed the stick of course).

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JimC
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 13:56 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Mar 2005
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Doesn't Windows XP (or maybe XP Pro) give you the option of encrypting the file system now? I've never used the feature but I thought it was there. I've got XP Pro installed and I thought I remembered seeng that option.

It seems to me I've seen some Linux distros mentioning the ability to encrypt file systems somewhere, too.

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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 15:49 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 1296
Wohnort: Budapest
SaberBlaze hat folgendes geschrieben::
Now, if a family or group of friends shared a computer, there are the issues of privacy. Whoever is the root user can see everything

Like the admin on a Windows-box. No difference. If you don't trust the owner, buy a box for yourself.

SaberBlaze hat folgendes geschrieben::
But when the kid gets older, he will want his/her parents to respect their privacy.

The admin on a Windows-box can be locked out? Just learnt something.

SaberBlaze hat folgendes geschrieben::
if somebody wants to install some game or something, they have to keep asking whoever is the root user to supply the password over and over again.

stupid /root.

If the owner trusts a user, he can give the user sudo rights for apt-get/yast/urpmi/yum ... whatever package-manager and Linux it is used. You do not need to add him to group root. Linux/Unix is _not_ Windows.

Third party software like google-earth or Windows-apps through wine should not be installed as root anyway.


SaberBlaze hat folgendes geschrieben::
I guess the way to bypass some of these problems is by making the users part of certain groups, but that increases the chances of maybe something screwing up.

Correct, that's why your guess is wrong.

SaberBlaze hat folgendes geschrieben::
So, is this user problem as big as I'm making out to be?


No. The user you give access to a Linux-box has to trust you and not the other way round. You own the box, you are root.

If you do chmod -R o-rwx ~/ no other user can do anything with your data. If you do not trust your family or friends, use an external drive for your home or don't give them access to the box.

Ok, if the box is in the same house, they still can break into it, but that means risking a few years in prison.

hubi

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