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chowyunpat
Titel: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 05:48 Uhr



Anmeldung: 03. Sep 2005
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How come any posts that mention a certain open source multimedia player that starts with M are censored?

Just curious. I had installed Kanotix 1-2006 RC1 on another hard drive and Kanotix is a great distro as it always has been, but the absence of any informatio,r an available package in the repository, and the censoring of posts about it stopped me from using it and I removed it from my hard drive for this reason alone.

I would like to use Kanotix and I have used it in the past, but they are certain things I have to come to expect from a Linux distro and thats certain multimedia player be available or installable.
 
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stryder
Titel: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 06:39 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
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This question has been asked many times. Why don't you read through this thread:

http://kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-17426.html

If you want to know more, ask at irc. The information to install is easily available. Or google.
 
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piper
Titel: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 16:52 Uhr
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chowyunpat

We have to follow German law, if you need to know more please visit us on #kanotix irc

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LtWorf
Titel: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 19:33 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jul 2006
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But one can still give a link to a non german wiki and suggest a string to search right?

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h2
Titel: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 19:48 Uhr



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wrong

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devil
Titel: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 20:36 Uhr
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irc is one klick away.

greetz
devil

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LtWorf
Titel: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 21:05 Uhr



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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
This question has been asked many times. Why don't you read through this thread:

http://kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-17426.html

If you want to know more, ask at irc. The information to install is easily available. Or google.


Does your thread exist really? I can see only an error message Traurig

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slh
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 21:09 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
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It seems to have been moved to the archive some time ago http://archive.kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-17426.html and is probably not the best thread regarding this topic...
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.09.2006, 21:21 Uhr



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Of course, in an ideal world, kanotix forum users would see that some topics/programs/methods are not allowed to be discussed, and they would realize that there is a very good reason for this, and would stop posting that in these threads, which happens far too often.

The kanotix team does what it needs to do in order to avoid problems, and that should be respected, and not questioned. Few people around you have more dedication to free software than the kanotix team members, so if things get censored, please stop pushing that issue and accept that it happens for a very good reason.

The most annoying posts are those that suggest that somehow this censorship should be stopped in favor of kanotix destroying itself by taking on a legal situation it can't win, as if that would help anyone in the world in any way.

So please, when something gets censored, use your head, it's censored for a reason, and it's a good reason. Don't try to work around it, don't try to cleverly link to something about the censored item, don't create searches etc. Just accept this as a sad fact of existence in our modern world. And if you don't like it, start working within your political system to change it, but don't ask the kanotix people to do that, it's not useful.

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stryder
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 23.09.2006, 01:17 Uhr



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slh hat folgendes geschrieben::
It seems to have been moved to the archive some time ago http://archive.kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-17426.html and is probably not the best thread regarding this topic...

Strange... all I did was do a search, click on the thread to be sure and then copied the url from the address box above, deleting the "highlight=..." part. Then I tested it by pasting it and go and it went.

Anyway, I thought it was suitable because a lot of "challenges" to the policy were raised and answered and if one were to read it perhaps one would realize that the matter has already been thought through pretty thoroughly and a decision has been made.

Installing any program is a simple apt-get away and any program that is so popular as to be a "must-have" will be only a search away. And there is always the ir-chat. Shame to refuse a great distro just for this. But of course one is free to decide what is a deal-breaker.
 
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Swynndla
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 23.09.2006, 01:38 Uhr



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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
slh hat folgendes geschrieben::
It seems to have been moved to the archive some time ago http://archive.kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-17426.html and is probably not the best thread regarding this topic...

Strange... all I did was do a search, click on the thread to be sure and then copied the url from the address box above, deleting the "highlight=..." part. Then I tested it by pasting it and go and it went.

The link worked like 12 hours ago. It seems to have been archived since then.

Also, although certain packages can be "apt-got", this only works if a non-official source is put used in the sources.list. I guess that is so debian is protected against any law suits.

So in an offial capacity, debian and kanotix have to jump through hoops, but individual users tend to do what the want.

But it is a shame, yes ... I mean if every licence in the work was gpl, then linux would have full multimedia support (including dvd playback, latest 3d games, latest flash plugin etc) and linux would triumph over m$. But unfortunately imo, where there is money to be made, laws are put in place to suit the money maker and not the consumer.

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piper
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 23.09.2006, 16:55 Uhr
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Thanks h2 for telling it like it is !

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joepotter
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 24.09.2006, 22:40 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Dez 2004
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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Of course, in an ideal world, kanotix forum users would see that some topics/programs/methods are not allowed to be discussed, and they would realize that there is a very good reason for this, and would stop posting that in these threads, which happens far too often. ...


In even a semi-ideal world, one would tell others what the heck you are talking about.

You have a continual supply of newcomers to these boards. They will ask how to set up multimedia (may one write even that word?), and expect an answer.

I have one:

"Due to our interpretation of German law, we will not discuss any multimedia players at all. You may visit a Debian discussion board of your choosing, and ask there."

At least that would tell a newcomer what the hell the problem is and how to react. This cloak and dagger stuff about "a player that starts with *" is for the birds.



Regards, Joe
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 24.09.2006, 22:52 Uhr



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Joe, it's not an interpretation of german law, it's a fact of german law, first off.

So get that idea out of your head. German law is currently far more radical and far reaching than most other law when it comes to this issue.

Technically, you're right that the statement:

<<< we will not discuss any multimedia players at all. You may visit a Debian discussion board of your choosing, and ask there. This is required due to the current state of German law. >>

would be helpful to new users.

However, your post unfortunately is an exact example of what I'm talking about. You read the thread, but still insist on trying to push this issue.

What I'm suggesting for new users, and users reading this thread, is that they use their heads now and then when confronted with a situation they may not understand. If this is an excessive request, that's a sad story in my opinion.

But you are right that some form of preformatted explanation would help, the only problem is that the real world VOLUNTEER forum mods have to do that each and every time this comes up. That's tedious, and not fun over time.

In fact, despite what you think, most newcomers are I'm happy to say quite able to handle this situation, and are quite able to adapt, and are quite capable of figuring out this stuff for themselves, which just leaves that relatively small number who aren't. It's that small number, especially the most stubborn ones, who insist on pushing this question far too much, that are the main problem.

It's not cloak and dagger stuff, and it's not a game, and the sooner you get this through your head the better off the kanotix people will be. Unless you are willing to personally do the things you want done to change things to be the way you want, I suggest you think about this a little more than you have currently done.

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joepotter
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 24.09.2006, 23:11 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Dez 2004
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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
... Technically, you're right that the statement:

<<< we will not discuss any multimedia players at all. You may visit a Debian discussion board of your choosing, and ask there. This is required due to the current state of German law. >>

would be helpful to new users.

... It's not cloak and dagger stuff, and it's not a game, ...



Yes it would be helpful. A single page on the wiki that said it in whatever manner Kano would approve of. Then, all one has to do is point the questioner to the pre-approved statement. That would stop these sorts of threads that I have seen over and over.

And yes it is "cloak and dagger" as we do it now. A simple statement as to policy, and reason, is expected and would help the position of Kanotix.

If the Ubuntu boards can at least mention it, so can this outfit. If it is only to say that your interpretation of current law prevents discussion of the topic.
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 24.09.2006, 23:50 Uhr



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Joe, please try to think before you speak, as I suggested other posters do too. The ubuntu boards are not physically located in germany, and in fact, they have recently been redone to be hosted each in their own language/country. This question came up recently, and I checked it out, and that's in fact how they are handling it.

Last I checked ubuntu was headquartered in South Africa. For the geographically challenged, south africa is not a small state in Germany. It is also not in east germany. britain and the united states are also not in germany, just so you know, in case you want to point to english speaking boards that do refer to these kinds of questions.

Please stop trying to say that this is an interpretation, it's an understanding of the currrent legal realities for a project based in germany with german hosted forums. Since you have clearly more or less zero knowledge about the specific german laws in question, and the kanotix team does, it would be nice if you would stop using that term. These guys know what they are doing, and they know why they are doing it. They are not interpreting, they are acting in a well thought out, rational, and coherent manner. And being prudent, for the long term good of the project.

Ubuntu is also a totally ridiculous counter example, even accepting the false claim that ubuntu boards and german hosted kanotix boards are somehow subject to the same laws, for the simple reason that ubuntu has money behind it. Ubuntu is not, despite what they claim, an open community based distro, but are in fact a nascent commercial distro, with a significant amount of funding behind them. Many of their core developers are paid, which is a fact that seems to escape all the ubuntu fan boys out there. And the project would collapse without Mark's financing, instantly. Although it would probably dribble on for a while, but it would eventually give up and remerge with debian.

This funding enables ubuntu to take on some legal risk without having to worry about being wiped off the face of the earth for no good reason at all. But, as usual, ubuntu users just like to pretend that ubuntu really is what it says it is, which it isn't.

However, feel free to start contributing to improve the situation here. I suggest as a first step you begin to monitor all english speaking threads during your waking hours, and then respond with the text you want given to new users when that would be useful to new users. Of course you'll need to catch up on the stuff that's posted while you sleep, but that usually only takes about 15 minutes in the morning on average days.

this is how you change things in an open source, volunteer run project. Since that is a very easy thing to do I'll look forward to you doing it and not complaining about how it should be done. If you don't think this is reasonable, then explain to me why it's reasonable for you to ask another volunteer to do this thing you want done, especially since doing it simply requires reading some postings and posting cut and paste responses, hardly programming or anything complicated?

If the thought of doing this day in and day out strikes you as tedious, boring, and unrewarding, then you now know why it's not done. But it is a good idea, so feel free to do it.

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von h2 am 25.09.2006, 00:21 Uhr, insgesamt 2 Male bearbeitet
 
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joepotter
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 25.09.2006, 00:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Dez 2004
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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Joe, please follow my advice and think before you speak.


I will do my best to continue to ignore the insults you use so frequently. I will be generous and continue to think that the language stands between us.

Zitat:
... Please stop trying to say that this is an interpretation, it's an understanding of the currrent legal realities ... the kanotix team does, it would be nice if you would stop using that term. These guys know what they are doing, and they know why they are doing it.


The word interpretation in English means that it is your informed understanding. Perhaps you should reword that last part; it proves my point for me. Smilie


Zitat:

However, feel free to start contributing to improve the situation here. I suggest ...



I have read Debian boards, Ubuntu, Arch, and many, many others since the very beginning of GNU/Linux. You take off on Ubuntu as if they were the point of my post. They were simply an example.

You have never addressed the simple fact that Kano can craft a statement to inform everyone about his policies. The distro is his and he may have any policy he wants.

It is simple courtesy and good practice for the moderators to make explicit the policy of the board. I further think that the moderators should also make the reason explicit.

Why do you feel that a public statement on the issue is unwise? If Kano's interpretation of the Law in his country is that even a mention of any media players is too dangerous for him to allow; why not say it once and for all time. (on the wiki --- and simply point there each time the subject comes up)

(yes, yes, I know --- you are soooo much smarter than old Joe; so explain the fear to make a simple policy statement to me)



Regards, Joe
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censoring  BeitragVerfasst am: 25.09.2006, 00:29 Uhr



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Last post from me on this topic.

First: you won't do what you ask to have done. Even if it's simple. That's normal, it's expected. And it's certainly not surprising.

The focus of the developers of this project are on gnu/linux and debian. That's what they care about. If you care about this issue as you claim to, then feel free to help. If you don't feel like helping, then feel free to not help, but please stop asking someone else to do what you want for you.

When you find yourself saying: person/group x or y in an open source project should do x or y, and x or y are in fact something you are perfectly capable of doing yourself, which you are in this case, then do it. If you don't want to do it, or aren't willing to spend the time/energy to do it, then don't ask other people to do it.

The fact that you claim to have lots of prior experience with open source doesn't make your point stronger, it makes it weaker, since you should already understand this stuff by now. It's not complicated, and I'm sure you have reasons that make sense to you, so that's whatever it is.

You brought up ubuntu as a counterexample. The fact that it was a totally bad example, and pointless, and has nothing to do with this case at all for the reasons I mentioned, doesn't seem to bother you at all, so there's no point in actually trying to talk to you further.

Kano has a policy statement, and he posts it all the time, it's easy to type: please ask in irc.

He, and the other developers, don't feel like dealing with this all the time, and really it's only a tiny handful of people, almost all of who fade away quickly, who insist on laboring the point endlessly, just like you are doing now.

So they use auto filtering to handle the actual text, and point people the the right places. But this isn't good enough for you, but you don't want to contribute to make it the way you'd like it. So why even bother talking to you? I can't see any reason personally.

By the way, thanks for providing the perfect example of exactly what I was referring to, the poster who wants to play word games, quibble,, argue this crap, instead of just moving on after they understand the core point and issue. Happily guys like you only appear maybe once every few months, most other people seem to be able to grasp the point as soon as they are told it, but some just have to argue and argue. Sad, but not much you can do. One thing is always the same though: words are easy, actions aren't, and it's guaranteed the posters, like you, who demand change x or y are not going t6o want to spend their own time/energy helping out. And since this is a non-commercial project, that's what it's all about.

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joepotter
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about censo  BeitragVerfasst am: 25.09.2006, 01:01 Uhr



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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Last post from me on this topic.


Imagine that.

Zitat:

First: you won't do what you ask to have done. Even if it's simple. That's normal, it's expected. And it's certainly not surprising.

The focus of the developers of this project are on gnu/linux and debian. That's what they care about. If you care about this issue as you claim to, then feel free to help. ...



I have seen this topic come up far to often, just as I wrote before. I did not start the thread, I only offer an attempt at a solution.

You dance around and impugn the motives of others (as well as their intelligence) and yet refuse to address the simple proposal. You get the conversation off track because you do not like a particular example.

I'll refresh your memory. I proposed that on a page on the wiki Kanotix states that these forums do not allow discussion of multimedia players. Then give the reason. (or whatever the exact policy is at any given time)

After that, any mention of a multimedia player gets a pointer to that page. It would save a ton of conversation.

This is an attempt to solve the problem of the *forum moderators* and you keep telling me the developers work hard. Hmmmm. Last I heard, the two jobs were a lot different.


If you can take a break from the veiled insults for a second, give that proposal some thought. Then ask yourself why you think it is so horrible to you. (especially since you came close to saying it was a good idea yourself) Smilie

"... you're right that the statement: ... would be helpful to new users. ..." wrote you.


Warmest Regards, Joe
 
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slh
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Question about c  BeitragVerfasst am: 25.09.2006, 01:03 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
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Thanks for your contribution, I'll honour it by locking this thread now.

The hint you were looking for is located here http://kanotix.com/module-Legal.html and you already had to agree to these terms while registering.
 
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