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Poll
Which free software license would you prefer?
GPL version 2
23%
 23%  [ 4 ]
GPL version 3
70%
 70%  [ 12 ]
BSD license
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Public Domain
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Other
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Stimmen insgesamt : 17


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locsmif
8 Titel: GPLv2 or GPLv3? BSD or Public Domain? A Poll for the People!  BeitragVerfasst am: 26.09.2006, 23:12 Uhr
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Hi, since i had a little 'discussion' with Linus Torvalds on the LKML, in which he basically told me to go fuck myself and write my own kernel....Sehr böse
http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/9/25/161

I thought i'd ask you guys which license you'd prefer. For GPLv3 you may assume the current draft, which is at: http://gplv3.fsf.org/
Please, if you haven't read it, do so and don't just base your opinion on the FUD out there. I'm very curious not just what the developers think, but also the users. Yes that means you! Smilie

Let's see what the result is!
Locsmif
 
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slam
Titel: GPLv2 or GPLv3? BSD or Public Domain? A Poll for the People!  BeitragVerfasst am: 26.09.2006, 23:35 Uhr



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Zitat:
It's not a democracy. Copyright is a _right_. Authors matter. Linus

Well, ..... hm ..... sometimes when climbing a high mountain a man might forget where he started, or where he really wants to go.

I am personally involved in several "free & open source projects", and make my living out of those projects' results since several years. Being far away from giving advice to Linus or any other other kernel hacker on technical grounds (actually I am a very bad programmer and simply pretending to code), I'm a grown up person with some life experience and "some" knowledge in other fields. The corporate and legal battlefield is one of my professional ones.

My vote is for GPLv3. GPLv2 was a great license I used extensively, but it's an old lady now. The world has changed, and licenses need to follow. Although I deeply regret that we still need any kind of license in this very 21st century, I can not do more than suggest to everybody else to vote for GPLv3. Use it, abuse it, criticize and fight it - help making it strong.

Thanks!
Chris

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locsmif
Titel: That's great slam, but...  BeitragVerfasst am: 26.09.2006, 23:37 Uhr
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...all i've been able to do is stare at your avatar!
Lachen
 
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locsmif
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 26.09.2006, 23:40 Uhr
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Besides: i haven't been around on the forum much.
Thanks again for 'knighting' me slam Smilie
 
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h2
Titel: RE: GPLv2 or GPLv3? BSD or Public Domain? A Poll for the Peo  BeitragVerfasst am: 26.09.2006, 23:52 Uhr



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It is good to see linus make his position perfectly clear, I admit. Although his stuff on drm is odd to put it mildly the drm discussed in gpl 3 is about locking down hardware so no other code can run on it, so I'm not clear what he's talking about when he talks about creative commons, or why he even brought that up, it certainly is never what is discussed in the threads I've followed. But that's getting to be expected for Linus I have to admit, he just isn't really making much sense, except to himself.

It's also odd to see what he says about the FSF talking about gnu/linux. Then to see Linus start talking as if linux is the os, not the kernel. The fsf is nothing but clear, they are talking about gnu + linux. They understand what apparently linus is losing the ability to grasp, what we think of as linux is in fact gnu and linux, which is what it is, plus many other things, kde gnome, etc. But at its most basic, stripped down, it's gnu/linux, not linux. And stallman has never claimed anything else. But Linus apparently is continuing on his downhill mental slide at full speed.

But it is his absolute right to stay with the gpl 2. That is definitely not in question, although it's also slightly odd to see him call himself the author of the kernel, since he's more the manager of it than the author. He never used to do that, he used to always deny credit and give it to the people who contribute, but I guess that's old history now too.

However, small and trivial as my various code stuff is, I'll be moving it all to gpl 3 as soon as I get a full understanding of it, and once it's finalized. I have no interest in allowing any hardware vendor to use code then deny anyone the right to hack their stuff, think for example the now legendary linksys wireless router.

And I have absolutely zero difficulty in foreseeing a day when 90 % of mobos require digital keys to run windows only, and will only start with oem installs of windows for example. Same for other hardware.

The patent stuff too is self evident, who in their right mind would support what the gpl 3 denies in terms of patent abuse?

However, keep in mind that this is a process, and it's not done yet, though the Linus has clearly locked himself into corner which he can never leave now.

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locsmif
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 00:06 Uhr
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One of the essential points is that Linus is trying to convey that most of the code in the kernel is GPLv2 only . He might even be backtracking older versions and substute legal wording in source code to ensure this.

Unfortunately the GPL also states that you cannot add additional restrictions and rerelease the source code. All of this pretty much rock solidly stops the kernel from ever becoming GPLv3, and might even provide Linus with the legal weaponry to attack anyone who tries. I see a possible problem coming when distro's have GCC under GPLv3 and the kernel under GPLv2.
I hope this license mixing is possible. I also hope that the legal trick that Linus is trying to pull is a dud.
 
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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 00:21 Uhr



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I read some stuff moglen and stallman were dealing with about that mixing, I think it's not a huge problem, but of course you have to read the real stuff and grasp it fully to know. However, openssh is bsd licensed, and is in every major distro, so I really don't see that much problem, although this could be wrong, but i don't think it is. Moglen is a very smart lawyer, as well as being a very dedicated human being, so I think he won't allow situations like that to occur.

the lgpl too is very loose, far more than the gpl, and wine, gnome, and some other major ones use that, with no particular issues.

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locsmif
Titel: Interesting quote  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 00:33 Uhr
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Interesting quote from Andrew Tanenbaum on http://people.fluidsignal.com/~luferbu/ ... nbaum.html

Zitat:

An interesting question is whether Linus is willing to let LINUX become "free" of his control. May people modify it (ruin it?) and sell it? Remember the hundreds of messages with subject "Re: Your software sold for money" when it was discovered the MINIX Centre in England was selling diskettes with news postings, more or less at cost?

Suppose Fred van Kempen returns from the dead and wants to take over, creating Fred's LINUX and Linus' LINUX, both useful but different. Is that ok? The test comes when a sizable group of people want to evolve LINUX in a way Linus does not want. Until that actually happens the point is moot, however.

If you like Linus' philosophy rather than mine, by all means, follow him, but please don't claim that you're doing this because LINUX is "free." Just say that you want a system with lots of bells and whistles. Fine. Your choice. I have no argument with that. Just tell the truth.

As an aside, for those folks who don't read news headers, Linus is in Finland and I am in The Netherlands. Are we reaching a situation where another critical industry, free software, that had been totally dominated by the U.S. is being taken over by the foreign competition? Will we soon see President Bush coming to Europe with Richard Stallman and Rick Rashid in tow, demanding that Europe import more American free software?

Andy Tanenbaum (ast@cs.vu.nl)


It seems that moment in time may still one day come, Linus.
 
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locsmif
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 00:51 Uhr
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Oh, and this reply from Linus i shouldn't withhold either:

Zitat:

In article <12746@star.cs.vu.nl> ast@cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbaum) writes:

If Linus wants to keep control of the official version, and a group of eager beavers want to go off in a different direction, the same problem arises.

This is the second time I've seen this "accusation" from ast, who feels pretty good about commenting on a kernel he probably haven't even seen. Or at least he hasn't asked me, or even read alt.os.linux about this. Just so that nobody takes his guess for the full thruth, here's my standing on "keeping control", in 2 words (three?):

I won't.

The only control I've effectively been keeping on linux is that I know it better than anybody else, and I've made my changes available to ftp-sites etc. Those have become effectively official releases, and I don't expect this to change for some time: not because I feel I have some moral right to it, but because I haven't heard too many complaints, and it will be a couple of months before I expect to find people who have the same "feel" for what happens in the kernel. (Well, maybe people are getting there: tytso certainly made some heavy changes even to 0.10, and others have hacked it as well)

In fact I have sent out feelers about some "linux-kernel" mailing list which would make the decisions about releases, as I expect I cannot fully support all the features that will /have/ to be added: SCSI etc, that I don't have the hardware for. The response has been non-existant: people don't seem to be that eager to change yet. (well, one person felt I should ask around for donations so that I could support it - and if anybody has interesting hardware lying around, I'd be happy to accept it Smilie

The only thing the copyright forbids (and I feel this is eminently reasonable) is that other people start making money off it, and don't make source available etc... This may not be a question of logic, but I'd feel very bad if someone could just sell my work for money, when I made it available expressly so that people could play around with a personal project. I think most people see my point.

That aside, if Fred van Kempen wanted to make a super-linux, he's quite wellcome. He won't be able to make much money on it (distribution fee only), and I don't think it's that good an idea to split linux up, but I wouldn't want to stop him even if the copyright let me.

I don't think the copyright issue is really the problem. The problem is co-ordinating things. Projects like GNU, MINIX, or LINUX only hold together if one person is in charge.

Yes, coordination is a big problem, and I don't think linux will move away from me as "head surgeon" for some time, partly because most people understand about these problems. But copyright /is/ an issue: if people feel I do a bad job, they can do it themselves. Likewise with gcc. The minix copyright, however, means that if someone feels he could make a better minix, he either has to make patches (which aren't that great whatever you say about them) or start off from scratch (and be attacked because you have other ideals).
 
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jackiebrown
Titel: Re: That's great slam, but...  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 01:35 Uhr



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locsmif hat folgendes geschrieben::
...all i've been able to do is stare at your avatar!
Lachen


I didn't want to be the first to say it.

With the way Linus talks now, it seems if he could do it over again he would have chosen one of the BSD lincences.

(I chose GPL3)

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titan
Titel: Re: Interesting quote  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 19:44 Uhr



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locsmif hat folgendes geschrieben::
Interesting quote from Andrew Tanenbaum on http://people.fluidsignal.com/~luferbu/ ... nbaum.html

It seems that moment in time may still one day come, Linus.



This was writen in 1992 ,seems his views and acerbic writing style haven't changed, I assume this is also before he GPL2 ed the kernel.

I haven,t voted because it will have absolutely no effect on the outcome and I don,t understand the subtleties of the changes. I know DRM is a contentious issue but this drm is nothing to do with the DRM of content management which is what most users object to but hardware. I think Linksys is mentioned somewhere but they are not working to the existing GPL2 so why would they work to GPL3. D-Link have also just been sucessfully prosecuted.

I think it was inevitable that Linus and Stallman would find their relationship strained both are single minded but with different objectives
 
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locsmif
Titel: Re: Interesting quote  BeitragVerfasst am: 28.09.2006, 00:06 Uhr
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titan hat folgendes geschrieben::
locsmif hat folgendes geschrieben::
Interesting quote from Andrew Tanenbaum on http://people.fluidsignal.com/~luferbu/ ... nbaum.html

It seems that moment in time may still one day come, Linus.



This was writen in 1992 ,seems his views and acerbic writing style haven't changed, I assume this is also before he GPL2 ed the kernel.

I haven,t voted because it will have absolutely no effect on the outcome and I don,t understand the subtleties of the changes. I know DRM is a contentious issue but this drm is nothing to do with the DRM of content management which is what most users object to but hardware. I think Linksys is mentioned somewhere but they are not working to the existing GPL2 so why would they work to GPL3. D-Link have also just been sucessfully prosecuted.

I think it was inevitable that Linus and Stallman would find their relationship strained both are single minded but with different objectives


I don't think DRM is ambiguous: there is only one DRM.
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management
(Be sure to read it fully, as the hairs in the back of your neck will
rise as you read stuff like this:)
An oft-cited example of DRM overreach is Adobe Systems' release in 2000 of a public domain work, Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, with DRM controls asserting that "this book cannot be read aloud" and so disabling use of the text-to-speech feature normally available in Adobe's eBook Reader.
 
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titan
Titel: Re: Interesting quote  BeitragVerfasst am: 28.09.2006, 10:34 Uhr



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locsmif hat folgendes geschrieben::

I don't think DRM is ambiguous: there is only one DRM.
.


I have re-read the latest draft version of the GPLv3 and I don't think it will have any great effect on controlling DRM. It is the restricted content that is the problem for most people and I can,t see how this changes anything as the corporations imposing ( software) drm have that right by law. I am not for or against GPLv3 I can see what it trying to achieve but I can't see how it can do it. The other aspect of DRM is the Tivoization effect but that looks like it may be covered by the GPLv2 anyway.

From Wikipedia
"There is also the interpretation that the "complete source code" in the GPL v.2 already implies that TiVo has to offer the private keys required for enabling modified software to run on their hardware. Gpl-violations.org has already successfully enforced this interpretation in Germany against Siemens and TomTom"

And Linus's views on TiVo

[url]http://groups.google.com/group/fa.linux.kernel/browse_frm/thread/2f93510ff38d9089/

It would be great if they could all agree and move forward together but it looks like the two views are quite entrenched. If I had to choose I think it would be stay as we are, there would be a lot of work changing the kernel for very little real benefit. Stallman has a vision but I think it would be better to stay united than to cause a major rift there will be other oportunities in the future. The pure number of licences show that the current GPLv2 is not for a lot of software developers anyway would a change increase or decrease the GPL's use.
 
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piper
Titel: RE: Re: Interesting quote  BeitragVerfasst am: 28.09.2006, 18:31 Uhr
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I am not sure as which is a better solution yet, "some" claim the GPL3 to be like M$ EULA (not my opinion). I have read (GPL3) about 15 times in the past hour and I am still not sure what my take is on this.

I did find this interesting

http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000100

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locsmif
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 15:55 Uhr
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Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management :

Zitat:

As already noted, many DRM opponents consider Digital Rights Management to be a misnomer. They argue that DRM manages rights (or access) the same way prison manages freedom. A common alternative is Digital Restrictions Management. Alternatively, ZDNet Executive Editor David Berlind suggests the term Content Restriction, Annulment and Protection or CRAP for short


I find it shocking that many people in the free software movement tend to lovingly refer to DRM as something that can be 'put to good use also'.
And that the GPLv3 will 'take away rights' from people who wish to employ DRM with free software. I find this quite a paradox, as DRM is something that gives you the right to take other people's rights away.

I personally buy a lot of vinyl, to support the artists i like. If somebody asked me to give up all the pirated mp3's that i have on my harddisk,
to prevent the advent of another fascistic technorepressive law by the EU or the US, i would. Owning the 'real thing' feels better anyway.

The FUD being spread that GPLv3 takes 'rights' away is harmful. If anything, it ensures that Free Software has a future. Where Richard Stallman has the audacity to take a moral stance (something scientists should do more often), Linus is more in favour of a 'laissez-faire' approach.

Somehow, given the enormous corporate backing Linux has acquired (HP, IBM, Oracle, Novell, Intel) i get the feeling there are other motives playing a part in this whole charade. DRM will get rammed down our throats wether we want it or not, and unfortunately Linux has undergone a process known as 'Fault Tolerance'.

Fault Tolerance means that a well functioning society might 'swallow up' an extreme, radical or uncommon phenomenon in order
to gain strength for itself. Otherwise, if it would have ejected or deprecated the phenomenon, it might not gain strength, but gain an enemy and weaken itself. We are witnessing a process where Linux and the free technology/software movement is being slowly stripped of its sharp edges.
The dream of having technology in your home doing what you want with it, when you want it, how you want it is fading. Instead technology is telling US what to do, and we are at the mercy of a machine's wishes.

Do we want to proactively fight against that? Or do we want to keep telling ourselves that this grim future perspective will never arrive? Or even worse, do we want to spread lies and FUD about someone who actually has the balls to stand up against repression? You go ahead Linus 'you can call me cap'en' Tovalds, managing YOUR kernel the way YOU see it. After all, it's not a DEMOCRACY is it. Perhaps you are a better pirate than you ever hoped for. Let the public (poll) speak! Smilie

Locsmif
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 16:10 Uhr
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GPL v2 handed you software and placed limits on what you could do with the software. GPL v3 hands you software and tries to dictate what you can do with hardware as well.

The GPL v3 tries to stop people from doing something that’s technically feasible by placing legal barriers. That’s exactly what the DMCA does, too


The GPL is not a compromise

I am still confused on this issue Smilie, I feel in a whole, we are f*cked with GPL v2 & GPL v3
and no matter what we "vote" DRM will rule and take over the world. Very sad.

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locsmif
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 17:03 Uhr
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Piper, btw, i like your avatar! Auf den Arm nehmen
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 17:15 Uhr
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hehe, I had a animated one like it, I think I lost it, you really would have liked that one Winken

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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 17:25 Uhr



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locsmif hat folgendes geschrieben::

If somebody asked me to give up all the pirated mp3's that i have on my harddisk,


Locsmif


Well this is what started the major move to DRM Mit den Augen rollen
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 17:37 Uhr
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I actually disagree, I think DRM is all about control & greed as it is a well known fact that the RIAA, etc, puts out crap period and file sharing is not hindering sales of music & movies, it is the "roots" (RIAA,etc) own fault for putting out crap to begin with which no-one wants and their fault for not staying with the times. They could have made a killing if they did things on the "internet" but refused technology and wants to stay in the 50's (motown days were alot of artists were screwed) and continue to use that way as a business model. The biggest thing they have going for them now is sueing dead people and people who don't even own a computer.

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dedot
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 17:39 Uhr



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Who said that software should have "moral responsabilities"? Linus is right when he says:
----------
[...] I'm also very much on record as saying that DRM, TPC etc have nothing at all to do
with the kernel license.
If you want to fight DRM, do so by joining the Creative Commons movement.
[...] The whole "content" discussion has _nothing_ to do with an operating
system. Trying to add that tie-in is a bad idea. It tries to link things
that aren't relevant.
So go fight the problem at the _source_ of the problem, not in my project
that has got nothing to do it.
----------
DRM is not a problem of the Linux Kernel. Lawyers, political movements and users should care of this problem.

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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 18:40 Uhr



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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
I actually disagree, I think DRM is all about control & greed as it is a well known fact that the RIAA, etc, puts out crap period and file sharing is not hindering sales of music & movies, it is the "roots" (RIAA,etc) own fault for putting out crap to begin with which no-one wants and their fault for not staying with the times. .


I disagree totally with DRM stopping "fair use" but it is their business and income and like it or not they are entitled to try and stop piracy. File sharing gave them the ammunition. I agree totally that most of Hollywoods output is crap along with manufactured recording artists but people still buy it. Fortunately most of my music collection is prior to drm so can't get too excited. Artists are now fighting back against their own exploitation and going it alone or with independent labels. cathbards links in his sig are good reading.

Control and greed are not nice words but it is what drives the worlds economy although they would prefer less emotive words like manage and profit.
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 20:23 Uhr
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hmm DRM is not business or income to me (opinions vary), DRM will in the future tell YOU when you can flush your toilet, tell you when you can pee, or when you can blink your eye, it is all about control, I don't need no-one to control my computer. 10 years from now, come back to this thread and tell me it ain't about control over the people and the world and why we must do what they say. This is why I left M$, I don't like them controlling me, nor my computer, and the more they push this DRM crap, the more pirates there will be, pretty much common sense.

Control and greed are not nice words

Big, Big difference between manage and profit verse Control and greed

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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 22:15 Uhr



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Wohnort: Waliser Märze
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
hmm DRM is not business or income to me (opinions vary), DRM will in the future tell YOU when you can flush your toilet, tell you when you can pee, or when you can blink your eye, it is all about control, I don't need no-one to control my computer. 10 years from now, come back to this thread and tell me it ain't about control over the people and the world and why we must do what they say. This is why I left M$, I don't like them controlling me, nor my computer, and the more they push this DRM crap, the more pirates there will be, pretty much common sense.

Control and greed are not nice words

Big, Big difference between manage and profit verse Control and greed


Bloody hell you are becoming paranoid, control over the people, this is complete rubbish, sorry but it needs to be said. How exactly is DRM affecting you now today What can't you rip or watch, not a lot.. Very little will happen within Linux and open source to affect you with drm. For that to happen either software or hardware or both will need to be written and made, who in their right mind will buy it. The only contact will be via protected data. I am sorry piper but I just don't share your pessimism. I dislike DRM and discord about the gpl and Firefox but don't give up you sound defeated. The battle has some way to go yet an I don't see Linux being on the loosing side.
Companies have always looked to protect their interests Ms gets the full protection of the US government, they even had a go at the EU about being too hard on MS with the fines. The light at the end of the tunnel is China India south America et al They are not MS lovers they don't want to be shackled and certainly dont want drm in any form. So ten years time worst case senario bombay Linux but I think people will vote with their feet and the situation will be much much better than today.
Old chinese proverb " he who anticipates disaster suffers twice" piper old mate Have a beer chill it really is not as bad as you think.

Ian
 
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Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 22:27 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
Beiträge: 2069
Wohnort: w3
#1
Zitat:
So go fight the problem at the _source_ of the problem, not in my project that has got nothing to do it.

#2
Zitat:
Old chinese proverb " he who anticipates disaster suffers twice" piper old mate Have a beer chill it really is not as bad as you think.

Actually the second one is more fun - Linus is getting old i guess. Winken

Greetings,
Chris

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"An operating system must operate."
 
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