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brodders
Titel: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 17:58 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
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Hi...

..is there a reason why Kanotix does not ship with the RT kernel?

This is always nice to use in other distros - all the multimedia LiveCD's have RT as standard - makes their distros very snappy and slick to use.

Why not Kanotix?? What is the downside?

brodders
 
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slh
Titel: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.09.2006, 18:03 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
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What do YOU expect from a realtime kernel?

--
(hint, realtime degrades performance significantly)
 
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brodders
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 28.09.2006, 17:52 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
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Hi,

my understanding the RT kernel is to minimise delays - typically for audio / multimedia apps, which need (?why - what's wrong with buffering?) instant responses. The patches tweek the schedular and insert more I/O event task checking in blocks of code which would otherwise hog time (so delaying response).

Why do I like RT distros? Well, using say dyna:bolic it is very clear that the RT mods make the system extremely smooth in use.

That's it. I like the responsive feel of <it's done> over <..it's done> !

No functional benefit - except the feel of using the distro. It's better.

So I wonder - why not ship as standard like this - what is the downside?

brodders
 
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mzilikazi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 28.09.2006, 18:21 Uhr
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The rt patches don't cause any noticible speed improvement here but I do use an rt kernel for my audio applications e.g. Ardour, XMMS, etc. It's quite simple to build your own rt kernel and there is even a Howto for your reading enjoyment. In case you did not notice Kanotix is not billed as a multimedia distro.

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brodders
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 29.09.2006, 09:39 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
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Hi mzilikazi,

Smilie I am aware of these things...

but my Q still stands, let me rephrase it:

Given various advantages, why does Kanotix not ship with the RT kernel as standard?


I suppse that there is a downside which militates against this.

..but what?

brodders
 
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jackiebrown
Titel: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 01:44 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
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brodders hat folgendes geschrieben::

I suppse that there is a downside which militates against this.

..but what?

brodders


slh hat folgendes geschrieben::
(hint, realtime degrades performance significantly)

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piper
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 03:50 Uhr
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And

mzilikazi wrote
Code:
Kanotix is not billed as a multimedia distro

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h2's d-u script
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jackiebrown
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 04:20 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
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Makes it easy when we can just quote (from the same 1 page thread) - right piper Winken

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slh
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 13:02 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
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Another question for you, what improvements would an -rt kernel do for the general user, defined by:
- browsing the web
- reading emails
- listening to mp3/ ogg vorbis via amaroK
- using kaffeine/ vdr/ kdetv to watch/ record TV/ videos
- using webcams and VoIP services
- burning CDs/ DVDs with k3b/ wodim
- doing office related tasks with koffice, OOo2, abiword, gnumeric
- using wlan
- playing ego shooter games
- doing graphics design with gimp
- being a C/ C++, perl, python, sh, ruby, scheme, cobol, algol, ... developer and doing heavy compiling
- doing web design with quanta+
- hosting several servers like apache, *SQL, postfix/ exim/ sendmail, dhcpd, bind9, rsync, samba, nfsd
- designing in inkscape
- 3d modelling with blender
- cutting/ transcoding videos
- [ . . . ]
- or something really strange, like using the live CD or using notebooks on batteries

?

--
I'm honestly interested in your answer or different definitions for the majority of kanotix users.
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 14:14 Uhr
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I use a RT kernel because I use Ardour, Muse etc so I just compile it myself. What would be nice however is an option to patch the kernel with RT in H2's script. Hint hint Winken
Recording apps in linux are brilliant but patching the kernel for RT often scares people away which is a shame. A script would be nice.

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piper
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 15:38 Uhr
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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
Makes it easy when we can just quote (from the same 1 page thread) - right piper Winken


hehe Winken

Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
Hint hint


lol, alot of work, I presume Winken

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kelmo
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 19:37 Uhr
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Why would we blindly introduce an intricate, invasive patch that significant modifies core behaviours of the kernel just so a smal subset of the population may feel as if they now have an advantage when using their audio apps?

Best wait until the guru's (linux kernel maintainers) integrate this functionality in the future.

Kel.
 
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DeepDayze
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 30.09.2006, 19:38 Uhr



Anmeldung: 08. Dez 2005
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makes sense
 
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brodders
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 01.10.2006, 18:10 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
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Smilie

Aha! ..it must be all that then

brodders
+ smily icon for "squints and resolves to get better glasses..."
 
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mzilikazi
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel  BeitragVerfasst am: 02.10.2006, 00:40 Uhr
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kelmo hat folgendes geschrieben::
blah blah blah the population may feel as if they now have an advantage when using their audio apps?


It's not a feeling kelmo - there is a genuine difference. You should try it next time you want to record your didgeridoo. Auf den Arm nehmen

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mzilikazi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.10.2006, 00:46 Uhr
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Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
What would be nice however is an option to patch the kernel with RT in H2's script.


Better yet would be an rt kernel ready to download & install. I *may* put an effort to that end in the near future. 2.6.18-rt3 honestly did not work so well and I dropped back to 2.6.17-rt Now that patch-2.6.18-rt5 is out I need to recompile and test for a while.

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wegface
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.10.2006, 15:21 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Nov 2005
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If it wasnt absoultely necessary to patch the kernel to acheive decent audio latencies then we surely wouldnt all bother? And those of us who use serious auidio apps thank mzilikazi for his excellent how to- which recieves decent interest to this date- and acheives RT kernel within less than 10 mins. Of course Kano is no musician (to my knowledge anyway lol) and this is HIS distro, so we wont be seeing an RT kernel ship with kanotix- it would be a waste of (valuable) disk space.

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 04.10.2006, 22:21 Uhr
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An RT kernel shipped in the iso wouldn't even be on the wish list. That would have to be a private DAW project of some sort. However, looking forward to MZ's kernel packages, thats the way to do it. Nice one.

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 05.10.2006, 05:12 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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If someone creates a rt kernel that is fully compatible with the install directions for kanotix standard kernels it's no problem to add that option to du-fixes, but only if the kernel package is 100% compatible with the standard kanotix formats.

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mzilikazi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 06.10.2006, 06:10 Uhr
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Edit This kernel is still available BUT you can also download a newer version from an actual (unofficial) Debian repo.


Kernel 2.6.18-mz-rt5 can be downloaded from here.
This is packaged just like the Kanotix kernels. It is patched with the same patchset used on 2.6.18-slh-up-2.

All modules plus kernel image, headers and doc are in a zip file.
Download the .zip archive, unpack and run the install-realtime-kernel.sh.

Only problem so far is that lirc modules failed to build for me. No chance to figure out why just yet so if you really need lirc you would need to build that module yourself until I get it fixed.

Please test the mz-source.sh script as well.

You'll also need this PAM module or realtime WILL NOT work.

I'll add the PAM module to the next kernel.zip

Please test and report back. Enjoy! Cool

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von mzilikazi am 22.11.2006, 01:04 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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brummer
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 06.10.2006, 13:23 Uhr



Anmeldung: 11. Jul 2006
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thanks a lot for this, so many musician can see the real performens from jackd ardur rosegarden ..... without compile a one kernel
i put a link in german forum for that
i enjoy it Sehr glücklich
 
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mzilikazi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 09.10.2006, 21:32 Uhr
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OK made a few changes:
Added PAM module to zip archive.
The install-realtime-kernel.sh will install the PAM module for you.
Small fix for stupid error in mz-source.sh
Moved rt5 patch to a different mirror. When ingo uploads a new patch the old one is removed!
This would not work too well for building a realtime patched kernl source. Smilie

Just tested the install-realtime-kernel.sh, mz-source.sh on a fresh RC4 installation. It works fabulously.
Code:
~$ infobash -v2
Host/Kernel/OS  "tuxmeister" running Linux 2.6.18-mz-rt5 i686 [ KANOTIX 2006-01 ]
CPU Info        Pentium III (Coppermine) clocked at [ 863.812 MHz ]
Videocard       nVidia NV11DDR [GeForce2 MX 100 DDR/200 DDR]  X.Org 7.1.1  [ 1280x1024 @85hz ]
Network cards   Intel 82801BA/BAM/CA/CAM Ethernet Controller, at port: 1000
Processes 109 | Uptime 4:36 | Memory 364.91/375.812MB | HDD ST320414A,SanDisk Cruzer Mini Size 20GB (28%used) | GLX Renderer GeForce2 MX/AGP/SSE | GLX Version 1.5.6 NVIDIA 87.74 | Client Shell | Infobash v2.50rc21


So..........You no longer need to download the PAM module. Get the zip archive, unpack it and run the installation script:
Code:
mkdir kernel
cd kernel
wget http://www.gefechtsdienst.de/uman/files/glenn/files/kernel-2.6.18-mz-rt5.zip
unp kernel-2.6.18-mz-rt5.zip
./install-realtime-kernel.sh


Be sure to post any problems you might have.

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slh
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 09.10.2006, 21:53 Uhr



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mzilikazi, you might want to disable wlan and ISDN driver (and some others on a case by case basis) completely because both introduce long non interruptable latencies - one of the reasons why -rt kernels (besides their own problems) aren't usable for general purpose systems, just like -rt patched kernels with a generic configuration aren't useful for serious realtime tasks...
 
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Oktyabr
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.10.2006, 20:56 Uhr



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Anyone tried the 2.6.18-1-486 kernel from the Debian unstable repositories? I've got it running on my RC3 install right now and hitting 5.8msec latency with an onboard nForce4 sound chip and the only xruns I'm getting is when I open a new window (like Firefox to post this)!

Very nice, no hacked pam modules or anything.
 
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mzilikazi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.10.2006, 23:32 Uhr
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Oktyabr hat folgendes geschrieben::
the only xruns I'm getting is when I open a new window (like Firefox to post this)!

Very nice, no hacked pam modules or anything.


That is completely unacceptable for music production and the PAM module is not 'hacked'.

Edit
libpam-modules-0.79-4 in Debian testing/sid is perfectly fine for realtime BUT
you must edit /etc/security/limits.conf.
Append the following to the end:

@audio - rtprio 99
@audio - nice -10
@audio - memlock 250000

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von mzilikazi am 22.11.2006, 01:07 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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