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piper
Titel: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 06.10.2006, 01:27 Uhr
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Is Ubuntu an operating system

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hubi
Titel: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 06.10.2006, 01:52 Uhr



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Well, some people need time to develop their writing skills to compete with school-kids in quality. But then they spam The Internet (TM) with stupid nonsense.

hubi

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turbowsr
Titel: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 06.10.2006, 02:24 Uhr



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Well, having been an MS user for years, I say there are not any problems with installation wizards. It is the point of view of the user. MS is trying to make the system easy for the below average user. Most of these users barely know how to turn the computer on, let alone even identify what a monitor, cpu, etc. I actually believe that this would benifit Linux if it ever hopes to break into the desktop market. It saddens me to read bad reviews of desktop systems because they are not geeky enough. Slackware is always there for them to use.
Customizing a distribution down to mirror the MS way of desktop use should be praised within the Linux community. I read "it's about choice", but if anyone builds a distribution that holds users in, someone in the Linux community goes nuts. There are 1000's of Linux distro's to do anything a geek wants to do. Why can't the ignorant also have a Linux distro? A distro with common themes, with a one stop shop. It's all about choice. Ignorance is a choice. If the community does not want this direction, and does not want to share GNU with ANYone, then they should create their own OS, and hide it from the ignorant and allow only geeks access.
I have used Win XP since it was released. The biggest headache was upgrading the hardware. With every upgrade, MS wanted you to re-activate the copy of XP. Other than that agrivation, XP is the best OS to come from MS. It worked very well, I never had BSD (Blue Screen of Death) while using XP. Win 9x was BSD heaven. I like using XP. I did not like the way MS handles their business nor their cusomers. But their way of doing business is similar to most big business. One of these big business's has even contributed major amount of code to Linux. Anyone ever hear of IBM.

What would the Linux community do if the next version of Windows was Open Source of some sort, maybe even GPLed GNU/Linux. Apple did something similar, but they are not the Goliath, so little fuss was raised. What if Apple had 70-85% market share? Would that change the circumstances.

This fundamentalist attitude is the same kind of attitude that led to the world trade center tragedy, abortion clinic bombings, Pat Roberts, and the chaos in the middle east. There are Fundies of all kinds, in all places, I just don't welcome any of them. I even welcome disagreement with me. I appriciate contrasting views. It is just the Fundies that believe it is their way or no way at all.

It reminds me of a comedian I heard on the radio from Augie Smith:
"I don't care for Bed, Bath and Beyond. I don't agree with what goes on in Bed, Bath and Beyond, so you know what?!?! I don't go to Bed, Bath and Beyond. But I don't care if you goto bed, Bath and Beyond. Heck, I don't care if you smoke in Bed, Bath and Beyond, you know why?!?! Because I don't go to Bed, Bath and Beyond. However, I don't put Bed, Bath and Beyond in an axis of evil with Kits and Caboodles and the Baby Gap..."

Anyhow, thats my rant and opinion. and it's worth every penny you paid for it Smilie
 
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kelmo
Titel: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.10.2006, 13:29 Uhr
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Yes it fucking is.
 
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slam
Titel: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.10.2006, 17:04 Uhr



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Ubuntu is a very nice operating system, based on Linux and Debian. It is probably the perfect entry level into Linux we ever had - and I am happy about it. I recommend it to everybody who is interested in leaving Microsoft's operating systems for the better.

That said, I hate Ubuntu for it's strategy of making everything simple to understand by reducing choices and freedom. That's why I don't recommend it to anybody who is looking for a serious operating system.

Greetings,
Chris

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The_Seeker
Titel: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.10.2006, 17:36 Uhr



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My sentiments exactly slam.
 
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piper
Titel: Re: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.10.2006, 18:15 Uhr
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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ubuntu is a very nice operating system, based on Linux and Debian. It is probably the perfect entry level into Linux we ever had - and I am happy about it. I recommend it to everybody who is interested in leaving Microsoft's operating systems for the better.

That said, I hate Ubuntu for it's strategy of making everything simple to understand by reducing choices and freedom. That's why I don't recommend it to anybody who is looking for a serious operating system.

Greetings,
Chris


That is the type of response, I thought (my mistake) I would read the most, which a type of response that I agree with.

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hey_ian
Titel: Re: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 07.10.2006, 18:39 Uhr



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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ubuntu is a very nice operating system, based on Linux and Debian. It is probably the perfect entry level into Linux we ever had - and I am happy about it. I recommend it to everybody who is interested in leaving Microsoft's operating systems for the better.

That said, I hate Ubuntu for it's strategy of making everything simple to understand by reducing choices and freedom. That's why I don't recommend it to anybody who is looking for a serious operating system.

Greetings,
Chris


You are completely right, slam! Ubuntu/Kubuntu is THE Linux based OS for beginners, but NOTHING for users who want more than only suring in the Internet/Checking mail and writing a letter with OOO.

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sk11
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Is Ubuntu an operating system?  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 03:26 Uhr



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A good Kanotix strategy would be to lure windows users first to ubuntu, then to knoppix and then onto kanotix by reasoning that it's a better version of knoppix. That is unless people wish kanotix death by obscurity.
 
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sk11
Titel: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 03:38 Uhr



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What ubuntuers think of Kanotix,
from http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=263691:

Zitat:
It's fast, but I seriously think it looks horrible Both the boot- up screen and the wallpaper look very amateurish.


Zitat:
I was just going to try it but the homesite scared the hell out of me...I think I will stick with Knoppix.


Interesting stuff, there's quite a bit of ignorance about kanotix, especially when it comes to it's advantages over knoppix. Having said that, they may have a point about kanotix.com looking scary ;P
 
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h2
Titel: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 04:53 Uhr



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that's funny, but my guess is that really kanotix is much better off leaving ubuntu fans to use ubuntu, that's perfect in my opinion, takes some pressure off of kanotix and the web servers here.

Zitat:
there's quite a bit of ignorance about kanotix, especially when it comes to...

I for one hope this level of ignorance continues, I like kanotix as the distro you will find once you learn enough to look for something better... And I also like that people who are attracted to the relative simplicity of stripped down debian based but not pure debian distro now have ubuntu.

The funny thing is that now that mepis is kubuntu, if you construct a specification for your ideal distro, like I did when I found kanotix, and it's this:

kde natively
pure debian based, ideally sid
high end developers

you end up with kanotix, there is as far as i can see no real competition any more.

and even if you accept gnome since you can always dump it and install kde, there is still no competition I know of except for debian itself.

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von h2 am 08.10.2006, 06:15 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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bobdawn
Titel: Re: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 05:19 Uhr



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sk11 hat folgendes geschrieben::
What ubuntuers think of Kanotix,
from http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=263691:

Zitat:
It's fast, but I seriously think it looks horrible Both the boot- up screen and the wallpaper look very amateurish.


Zitat:
I was just going to try it but the homesite scared the hell out of me...I think I will stick with Knoppix.


Interesting stuff, there's quite a bit of ignorance about kanotix, especially when it comes to it's advantages over knoppix. Having said that, they may have a point about kanotix.com looking scary ;P


My reply:
I agree. I gave Ubuntu and Kubuntu a good try before moving (with relief and delight) to Kanotix. Who cares how the default looks? Of course, I spent a couple of minutes changing the splash screen and wallpaper, then loaded privoxy, openoffice and a few other goodies, as I would with any distro. Then I loaded compiz.
I read the Ubuntu forum, but concluded that they're happy playing in their little sand-box and none of them really knows anything about Kanotix. Most of them might even be better off with Vista!
 
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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 06:15 Uhr



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h2 said:
Zitat:
there is still no competition I know of except for debian itself.


That's true, but the thing is, from my personal experience, it takes quite a bit of configuring to make a pure Debian install (& this is NOT to denigrate debian) to obtain or acquire all the advantages/benefits of the latest Kanotix install. I've installed & used pure debian, & even though the installation process has VASTLY improved over what is was in the past, Kanotix beats it hands down & without question, IMHO, if what you're seeking is a so-called "bleeding edge" pkg distribution that works w/out a bunch of error messages. I'm kinda crazy, so I like to configure things--up to a point. I have been simply astonished about how easily Kanotix has made the process of making sid packages work together. Most people won't appreciate this unless they have tried to do so under different circumstances such as a knoppix or debian install to HD, or any other debian-based distro, which are testing at best.

Kanotix really IS unique, & I'm kinda surprised that reviewers aren't tooting this horn more loudly. (Poor english, I realize) but I guess this might be because people are afraid of the word "unstable". There's enough of that already in the world, eh?

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 06:19 Uhr



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Zitat:
I'm kinda surprised that reviewers aren't tooting this horn more loudly.

So am I to be honest, I haven't been able to figure that one out, thread after thread I read talks about various debian difficulties, such as what you mention, and then go onto act as if there is no solution, when there is.

I guess the german language default of the forums scared a lot of people away at one point, and the graphics may have confused others at the same point, but to me a reviewer should be looking primarily at how well the system works, hardware detection out of the box, speed, stability, all that.

But, again, it's hard to see what kanotix would gain from attracting lots of newbie users, I like the current mix, it's pleasant, tends to more advanced users, but ones who for whatever reason just can't deal with, or don't want to deal with, debian sid in the raw, so to speak.

To me a nice future scenario is running etch on servers and kanotix on desktops, that is the best of both worlds in my opinion, and it's what I plan on doing more and more.

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analogtek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 06:57 Uhr



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I have tryed several including kunbuntu..But when mepis forked,forked ,forked... enought of this forkin around..found Kano it ROCK'S....if it fork's I will drop in a quick fdisk to something else...


PLEASE KANO... I BEG YOU DON'T FORK!!!!
 
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@jens
Titel: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 13:31 Uhr



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h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
that's funny, but my guess is that really kanotix is much better off leaving ubuntu fans to use ubuntu, that's perfect in my opinion, takes some pressure off of kanotix and the web servers here.

Zitat:
there's quite a bit of ignorance about kanotix, especially when it comes to...


[...]
The funny thing is that now that mepis is kubuntu, [...]


Let's be fair: Mempis is *not* Kubuntu. Not at all! I tested Mepis 6.0 RC2 for many months. It's a very nice, 100% stable and really "polished" (K)Ubuntu based Distro.

Greetings
@jens
 
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slam
Titel: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 15:02 Uhr



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I used Mepis long time before there was Ubuntu , and I used it before I found Kanotix (2 years ago) - it was a nicely done polished & user friendly distribution those days. Now it is just Warren fishing for $$ = Fisherman's Friend, based on (Kubuntu) after a shower, spiced up with several dubious license problems. Also I prefer to restrict my personal contact with people who "love" their operating system.

I don't love Kanotix - i use it, support it, help improving it, spread it, install it everywhere. But my love is somewhere else, far away from computers. Winken

Greetings,
Chris

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tinker
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 15:19 Uhr



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I agree that Kanotix is an excellent distro (means I must be smart for finding my way here, chuckle). My guess is that reviewers tend to play in the sandbox where there is the most hype, only a very few of them set trends, and ones trying to be recognised don't want to have to defend their articles, they want to become part of the "club". That being said (and it may not be correct), I have to agree that a huge influx of raw newbie users would put a huge drain on resources and the helpful forum community. Some of the people best suited to review Kanotix and compare to other distros probably aren't interested in writing articles.

Actually, I run sarge on my main server because that computer has stuff that I consider "mission critical" for my life. YMMV. Kanotix on my laptop lets me have a chance to use more up-to-date software but with the safety that Kano and the Kanotix team provide, I don't have to spend hours and days troubleshooting as one would if tracking sid on their own. The way that the Kanotix team chooses to release a "stable" only when it's time and to be sid, with enhancements for functionality, is excellent from my point of view and pretty much mirrors the strengths of Debian.

I like the fish icon too. Smilie

If I wasn't on a small fixed income, I'd "put my money where my mouth is", to quote an old saying.

If I win a lottery, I'll at least buy a tshirt.
 
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@jens
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 16:06 Uhr



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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
I used Mepis long time before there was Ubuntu , and I used it before I found Kanotix (2 years ago) - it was a nicely done polished & user friendly distribution those days. Now it is just Warren fishing for $$ =


Huh? You can download Mepis for free. Why the bashing? We have 2 Laptops and 2 PCs in the family. My wife and my jounger daughter are happy with Kubuntu, and - yes - I installed Mepis 6.0 Rel on my elder daughter's laptop because she studies 100 miles away in Exeter and I'm not around to help her when "Sid" behaves like "Sid" again (Toy Story...). Kanotix is a great distro for more advanced users but can be too unreliable for rather computer illitarates who only want to work, surf the net and have some fun with games.

Greetings
@jens
 
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hey_ian
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 16:11 Uhr



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@jens hat folgendes geschrieben::
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
I used Mepis long time before there was Ubuntu , and I used it before I found Kanotix (2 years ago) - it was a nicely done polished & user friendly distribution those days. Now it is just Warren fishing for $$ =


Huh? You can download Mepis for free. Why the bashing? We have 2 Laptops and 2 PCs in the family. My wife and my jounger daughter are happy with Kubuntu, and - yes - I installed Mepis 6.0 Rel on my elder daughter's laptop because she studies 100 miles away in Exeter and I'm not around to help her when "Sid" behaves like "Sid" again (Toy Story...). Kanotix is a great distro for more advanced users but can be too unreliable for rather computer illitarates who only want to work, surf the net and have some fun with games.

Greetings
@jens


And this is the point! I completely agree with you!

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slam
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 17:08 Uhr



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Zitat:
Kanotix is a great distro for more advanced users but can be too unreliable for rather computer illitarates who only want to work, surf the net and have some fun with games.

I can't more than strongly disagree. I have installed and support Kanotix on hundreds of different machines, with users more different in their computer literacy than you can imagine. There is not one single client complaining about the choice I did for them - and no, I don't shoot them before they can complain. Winken

Among my clients there are moms and dads who have never used a computer before, there are kids and teenagers of all age, students and musicians, lawyers and consultants, managers and tax advisors, IT-professionals and programmers, people from many different countries speaking different languages, ....

The only people who ever had problems with Kanotix where "Windows-Experts", who insisted on the "Windows Way (©)" would be the best way, and missed the hard restrictions "their" operating system had put on them before. There have been also some "tweakers & overclockers" who left Kanotix unhappy - should the corporate M$-god always be with them.

I deeply believe that restricting choices and possibilities for others is an unethical and wrong way, even if it makes things for them more complicate in the beginning. People of all levels of intelligence and education are able to understand and learn much more and much faster than we probably believe - if they are interested. That's why I not just let them do, but actively fight the "Human Way(©)" Ubuntu and their children distros use to attract their client base.

I feel personally very honored to be allowed taking part in the Kanotix community, where many dedicated people spend a lot of time and power to create a really useful and free operating system for each other which encourages and supports choices and diversity, instead of just ripping off the Debian community and creating a dog-brown brand.

Greetings,
Chris

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piper
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 17:09 Uhr
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What I don't understand is, I did not post this as flamebait or whatever, I wanted feedback on some issues here, and these issues were linux (not ub) in general. The only thing I see, "maybe" as a flame would be the title of the article that the author gave it. You can't judge a book, by it's title !

These are the "issues" (or parts of the article) I had hoped to be commented on.

Zitat:
"Free-software fundamentalists and practicalists often loudly disagree whether encouraging proprietary software on Linux is irresponsible or essential. It is either misguided or arrogant, however, to think that all users’ needs can be met by a central software repository, even if all software were open-source and free. Some of the best software available today started out small, was distributed on the internet, and made popular by word of mouth. The impetus of “Download Now” is strong, and promotes healthy competition and diversity. Whether a video player by a startup company or a newly-released version of Firefox that hasn’t yet made it to the central repository, stumbling blocks in the software distribution process caused by this centralization will reduce the ability for small projects to promote new software through viral marketing.

This is not an absolute restriction. Authors could provide the download as a .tar.bz2 archive or even .deb package, but those types of packages require the user to perform complicated actions such as opening a terminal and knowing the magic incantation."

"If application developers can’t attract users to the desktop, the only alternative is for new applications to be deployed entirely on the web. Although some people believe that the trend of applications moving onto the web is irreversable, I’m more optimistic. There is value, power, and security in the desktop. But without cooperation, I certainly wouldn’t plan to deploy my next application on Linux.

Allowing users to install their own software does have some consequences. Unfortunately, the discussion of how the software should be packaged and distributed quickly devolves into flamewars over the relative merits of RPMs, dpkg, or <insert technology here>. This is counterproductive, ignoring the fundamental issue: Linux software is typically not a self-contained package that could be placed in a single directory. A collection of files that are variously placed in /usr/bin, /usr/share/man, and perhaps many other locations, making it very difficult to relocate binary software because library dependencies are resolved to a fixed set of paths, and never relative to the binary location."

"I do not pretend to have a solution in hand for installing software on Linux. I think that Mac-style application bundles could be made to work, but supporting them would require additional features in the dynamic linker, along with something like mac Launch Services to provide good cross-application integration. In addition, since regular software updates are an essential part of modern system security, it is important to have a good and simple way to update software. If distributing software in relocatable packages is completely impractical for technical or social reasons, the same problem could perhaps be solved by allowing users to easily install packages from non-default software repositories."

"Free-software zealots may be also to blame: “users have the software source code, they are free to compile and install it themselves!”, mixing a philosophy and a technical decision which are not inherently related. Human nature wants software that works, and this includes software which can be installed and tried without the technical prowess needed to unpack software and run “configure && make && make install” and interpret the resulting console spew to figure out whether it succeeded or not and then figure out that you really needed make 3.80, and your gnome headers are too old, or too new, etc.. The issues of licensing software freely should be divorced from the ability of users to install and use the software."


"Most" of this article is about linux in general, unless I don't know how to read. This article is posted at a couple other forums and was "not labled" as a flame or to start wars.

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@jens
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 17:41 Uhr



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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Zitat:
Kanotix is a great distro for more advanced users but can be too unreliable for rather computer illitarates who only want to work, surf the net and have some fun with games.


I can't more than strongly disagree. I have installed and support Kanotix on hundreds of different machines, with users more different in their computer literacy than you can imagine. There is not one single client complaining about the choice I did for them - and no, I don't shoot them before they can complain. Winken

Among my clients there are moms and dads who have never used a computer before, there are kids and teenagers of all age, students and musicians, lawyers and consultants, managers and tax advisors, IT-professionals and programmers, people from many different countries speaking different languages, ....


Oh I'm pretty sure that's 100% okay. And easy! The point is, if you leave a working "Kanotix-Snapshot" as it is, okay, no problems. Well, in this case you installed Kanotix in a so to say "Mepis-way". Or did you really suggest to do a d-u every week or so to your "mums and dads" clients? Smilie

Greets
@jens
 
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hey_ian
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 17:57 Uhr



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@jens hat folgendes geschrieben::

Oh I'm pretty sure that's 100% okay. And easy! The point is, if you leave a working "Kanotix-Snapshot" as it is, okay, no problems. Well, in this case you installed Kanotix in a so to say "Mepis-way". Or did you really suggest to do a d-u every week or so to your "mums and dads" clients? Smilie

Greets
@jens


Does Mepis or "the Mepis-way" exclude dist-upgrades?

In my opinion Kanotix is not the best solution for a computer beginner, not only because of dist-upgrade errors, but because of the lots of packages are delivered with the live CD, which a newbie does not need; the KDE, which is a bit too extensible for a user, who never used a PC before or coming from MS WinDOS. It is better when they use Ubuntu, they have GNOME there, which is simplier than KDE and such things like an easy Add/Remove Software utility, which KAnotix does not have (I do not mean things like apt-get or synapitc, they are too difficult for newbies).
This is my opinion.

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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 08.10.2006, 18:42 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005

Zitat:
What I don't understand is, I did not post this as flamebait or whatever, I wanted feedback on some issues here


piper, I'm surprised to hear anyone reacted negatively to this posting, which I read exactly as you intended it to be read, but maybe that's because I simply clicked on the link you provided and read the article, which is not particularly about ubuntu at all, but about what you quoted.

I disagree, however, with the article author, and I have to say, I disagree completely. All in one packages ala windows software installs create bloat, invite insecurity into the system, and in general, simply recreate windows in all its glory.

This seems to be a seriously fundamental flaw in how many people view linux, they simply do not seem able to escape the notion that linux should be windows except in price.

What I have to assume is that such reviewers simply have never made the commitment to switch 100% of time to any linux distro, and so continuely are searching for that ellusive windows feature x or y that they have gotten far too used to.

The absurdity of this position becomes most evident when you are talking about package install. What could be simpler, safer and more user friendly than a well run apt packaging system? I can't think of anything. apt-get install packagename? That is supposed to be hard? Or a negative? When you download all in one package installers, those have to be massively overbuilt, with all the dependent libraries of whatever generation is required included since you can never count on them being preinstalled.

This is how most windows software of any complexity works, that's why dlls are thrown all over the place on install in windows.

Next I guess this guy will write an article about how linux desktops need something with the 'convenience' and binary basis of windows registry, an all in one repository for any and all random garbage someone wants to throw into the mix.

I disagree that kanotix is well suited for average users however, except in the case where it supported by someone who can skip the problems that an innocent package install that ends up bringing in a new kde for example creates. A person like slam, that is. I'm also beginning to experiment with spreading out kanotix to normal zero skill computer users, but avoiding windows users who either a: use a lot of hardware that may not work with Linux, or b: have a workflow that depends on any major windows applications.

I've found too many of these situations while testing my script. For example, if you try to install something as simple as the nonfree flash package on an older install, say a few months old, it will try to pull in all of xorg, I think udev, hal, and some other stuff. All for a flash plugin! And if the user did that in x or kde, bang, dead system. Obviously, if I set someone up with a box, I'm going to try to anticipate as much as possible, but I can't anticipate every need of every new user.

That's the middle ground windows user, the dreaded windows power user, that is. Currently I can't recommend any linux to them, since it would create more problems than solutions. However, one thing I will no longer do is fix virus/spyware infested computers for anything less than my standard hourly rate, since doing so simply enables the continuing denial of core windows insecurity issues.

I guess I'm not a true linux fan type, since I don't think all windows users are better off with linux, I don't think linux is better off trying to support windows users expectations, and I'm happy that os x is covering the ground between linux and windows. 3 operating systems for the desktop seems to be pretty workable, and I'd like to see each focus on their strengths as much as possible, and not treat the idea of trying to emulate a weakness of some other os as a positive. OS X seems to be able to do this quite consistently, for example.

The idea that a massive strength like apt repositories is somehow a negative is a perfect example of failing to see a strength for what it is, neither osx or windows have anything even remotely similar.

In a sense, it's to ubuntu's credit that they recognized this strength for what it is, and made it the foundation of their distro, annoying as some of their practices are re debian etc, pluses and minuses I guess on both sides.

Long terms I think linux would be much better off doing what it's doing, catering to the needs of its actual users, who tend as rule to be more tech savy than either osx or windows users. However, recent large scale public switches to debian sarge based desktops is going to start changing things in a fairly significant way I believe. Running 100k machines with sarge / etch is going to have an impact without any question on how linux handles newer users, that process is going to be very interesting to watch.

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