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kelmo
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kanotix  BeitragVerfasst am: 11.10.2006, 08:23 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 01. Okt 2004
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@ piper, my little outburst is attributed to the fact I see too much pointless Ubuntu bashing. I did not like the thread title, and couldn't really be bothered clicking on an external link to find out what the "real" points of discussion are.
 
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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.10.2006, 23:47 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
Beiträge: 471
Wohnort: Portland, OR, USA
IMHO, the article's title has nothing to do with its content, and its content is...perhaps "inconsequential" would be the word. The gist is that the author hears Mark Shuttleworth talk about Ubuntu, and concludes that Shuttlesworth's saying all the software that end users want should be contained in Ubuntu's repositories, so end users don't have to deal with software installers. The author takes this to mean that Ubuntu is somehow limiting user choice, claiming that Ubuntu "intentionally makes installation (of third-party software) difficult." Then he extrapolates his conclusion to Linux distros in general.

The post is basically a complaint that installing software on Linux isn't as easy as downloading a binary "setup.exe" and double-clicking on it, the way you do on Windows. To the author, this somehow stifles both "innovation" and user choice.

His argument might be more interesting if he explored why different Linux distros exist in the first place, how their attendant software installation mechanisms and repositories evolved over time, and how Linux differs from Windows -- which, unlike Linux, is a tightly controlled, monolithic platform.
 
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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.10.2006, 01:11 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
Beiträge: 275
Wohnort: Paris-France
No!
The real question is perhaps is it a real distro?

GNU/Linux is an OS.... XP is even an OS (just a crap one) .... *BSD is an OS but Ubuntu is hardly even a distro in its own right....

Even suse might semi-qualify to be an OS.... much as I hate suse but at least it has its own way of doing things... I just happen to hate the lack of control.... but I might even say its no longer even Linux, indeed some of the BSD's feel more like Linux to me than Suse....

Though perhaps Im forgetting the UbutnuFs and Ubuntu package management? or the pecualiar SysUbuntu init scrips?

Making everyone root and having no root password doesn't qualify as being an OS in its own right, just illustrates a complete lack of understanding of basic *NIX and *UNIX security....

I guess the reviewers never managed to get past the install part where it asks for a root password?
 
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stryder
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: what ubuntuers think of kano  BeitragVerfasst am: 12.10.2006, 01:29 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389

h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
I disagree, however, with the article author, and I have to say, I disagree completely. All in one packages ala windows software installs create bloat, invite insecurity into the system, and in general, simply recreate windows in all its glory.

This seems to be a seriously fundamental flaw in how many people view linux, they simply do not seem able to escape the notion that linux should be windows except in price.

Actually when I think of "all-in-one" packages, I think of them as opposite of windows software installs. And windows registry is a weakness, not strength. I think instead of OSX's installation technique: drag this app to wherever you want to place it and use it by double-clicking on it. To uninstall: drag this app to trash. What I don't know is whether OSX's system create bloat and invite insecurity. But it sure makes it easy to try software.
 
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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.10.2006, 01:40 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 732
Wohnort: Texas
analogtek hat folgendes geschrieben::
I have tryed several including kunbuntu..But when mepis forked,forked ,forked... enought of this forkin around..found Kano it ROCK'S....if it fork's I will drop in a quick fdisk to something else...


PLEASE KANO... I BEG YOU DON'T FORK!!!!


Seconded

_________________
Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.
Mark Twain
 
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jbs1136
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.10.2006, 01:26 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jul 2006
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Wohnort: Spanaway, Wa
I can't pass up this opportunity to add my comment. I read most of the article and quit after I realized he didn't really know what he was talking about. But that is not the reason for my post. I am one of those that got caught up with windows and MS. It was easier to go along and use the norm. I wasn't really happy but wasn't overly concerned. After I retired and had more time to devote to playing on my computer I discovered that I really didn't like windows. I tried, over a couple of years, to find a linux distro that I could use. Most were confusing to me and most of the forums I found were almost hostile to someone new. Kanotix was pointed out to me and I tried it. I really like it and use it as my main computer. I use windows for quicken and a couple of recipe programs and to hold open instructions sometimes while I do something in linux (like the first time that I ran h2's script.) I have found this forum to be pretty good in answering questions and not trying to talk over someone new but there is an underlying theme in this thread that bothers me. Am I ignorant because I don't know Linux? Conversely, are you ignorant because you don't understand the workings of your car, lawnmower, microwave, television, dvd player, etc.? There are a lot of people who don't want to ticker with their os, they just want it to work. Windows, for the most part fills this bill. Linux could do it better. Look at AOL and how many people use it. Do I have to be able to program to like Linux, no. or to use it, again no. There are a few things that I need to know to make it work and that is fine to learn. Kind of like putting gas in a car or air in the tires. I don't want to be able to rebuild the engine, just drive it. The same goes with linux. I want to be able to use it and keep it working. Actually this is easier than with windows. But again back to the point. I am not ignorant. I am learning something new. From the thinking that I have read here, if it were applied across the board to different areas auto mechanics would think anyone that drove a car and couldn't overhaul an engine or repair their brakes would be ignorant. We new guys are not ignorant, just haven't learned everything yet.

John
 
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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.10.2006, 03:04 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005

no one has learned everything yet, nor will they ever do that. You should have seen my first du-fixes versions for example, simplistic stuff on a technical level though it worked ok, with bugs.

I think, however, that gnu/linux systems tend to reward people who like to tinker much more than windows. That's just built into it.

That doesn't mean you can't use it as a standard desktop, just doing the stuff you do, but it really does reward you when you start getting into the innards, that's a strength of linux, I know it's one big reason I switched, I was tired of putting out energy to learn vague windows stuff that changes whenever Microsoft feels like changing it.

it's always a learning curve, and it sounds like you're the perfect type to enjoy the ride, and are completely capable of deciding for yourself how far you want to go. I'd say that's another big plus of free software in general, it's up to you to decide what degree you want to go with it.

_________________
Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.10.2006, 07:20 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 11. Aug 2005
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I remember thinking similar things to what was said in that article when I first started using Linux. The whole dependency hell thing really pissed me off but i was using suse 9.x and it's a pig when it comes to resolving deps. Then I found Kanotix and kissed rpm goodbye.
Instead of trying to tell the whole world how it should be like this guy has I went away and learned a bit about why Linux/gnu was built this way. I then realised that this apparent weakness regarding dependencies was in fact a strength. It is the modular nature of Linux that makes it what it is. The occasional dependency issue when installing packages is a small price to pay.
Screw monolithic systems that try to lock you in. It's a sad person that's scared to learn and I'd rather sad people like that kept away ..... who needs 'em? Winken

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The real pirates by Courtney Love
 
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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.10.2006, 11:53 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
Beiträge: 275
Wohnort: Paris-France
All good points I am just saying this from a different perspective...

jbs1136 hat folgendes geschrieben::
I can't pass up this opportunity to add my comment. I read most of the article and quit after I realized he didn't really know what he was talking about. But that is not the reason for my post. I am one of those that got caught up with windows and MS. It was easier to go along and use the norm.


Well Im with you there as are a lot of people....
Zitat:

I wasn't really happy but wasn't overly concerned. After I retired and had more time to devote to playing on my computer I discovered that I really didn't like windows. I tried, over a couple of years, to find a linux distro that I could use.

Well my first Linux was slackware 2.x ... It all worked and all but it didn't actually do anything... the apps were just not available.

Zitat:

Most were confusing to me and most of the forums I found were almost hostile to someone new.

Well, thats definately true of some forums but IMHO its not just Linux forums or even technology...
Zitat:

Kanotix was pointed out to me and I tried it. I really like it and use it as my main computer. I use windows for quicken and a couple of recipe programs and to hold open instructions sometimes while I do something in linux (like the first time that I ran h2's script.) I have found this forum to be pretty good in answering questions and not trying to talk over someone new but there is an underlying theme in this thread that bothers me.

just cutting that seperately....
Zitat:

Am I ignorant because I don't know Linux?

Yes but does it matter? I mean there are 1001 things i don't know about and I'm totally ignorant of. However I'm a naturally techy person so....
Zitat:

Conversely, are you ignorant because you don't understand the workings of your car, lawnmower, microwave, television, dvd player, etc.?

Well IMHO yes but that's just me. I would never consider not understanding something like that but that's just my nature.
I'm completely ignorant of team sports, most art and lots of other things ... noone knows everything because noone is interested in everything.
I tinker with my cars and my appartment much to my GF's chagrin is packed full of semi dismantled DVD players etc.

Zitat:

There are a lot of people who don't want to ticker with their os, they just want it to work. Windows, for the most part fills this bill.

Well Im no win expert anymore but it seems like if you go online with windows you can't just leave it to work, it needs anti-virus updates etc. etc. (or regular reinstalls)... but like the car you can always pay someone else to do this if its not your own interest....

Zitat:

Linux could do it better. Look at AOL and how many people use it. Do I have to be able to program to like Linux, no. or to use it, again no. There are a few things that I need to know to make it work and that is fine to learn. Kind of like putting gas in a car or air in the tires. I don't want to be able to rebuild the engine, just drive it. The same goes with linux. I want to be able to use it and keep it working.

Yes but presumably you don't quite mean that... you can just run the LiveCD and it will do most everything most people *need* but its starting to sound like you WANT to tinker Sehr glücklich
Presumably you want to see what happens if you install new SW or you want to change your desktop etc. I agree not everyone does but it sounds like you do....
What Im saying is that for 90% of most peoples needs they can just pop in the liveCd and not do anything. Ive installed kanotix on a couple of machines of people with no interest in computers at all, they just want email, internet access and perhaps a word processor.... it occurs to me that you want MORE... and good on you for it... but even after you learn linux you will still be "ignorant" of BSD... from my own part I am fast becoming ignorant of Windows... as this forum reminds me I'm ignorant of German.... sometimes it is only by realising that we were actually ignorant of a whole topic that we find we actually find it interesting Sehr glücklich



Zitat:

Actually this is easier than with windows. But again back to the point. I am not ignorant. I am learning something new. From the thinking that I have read here, if it were applied across the board to different areas auto mechanics would think anyone that drove a car and couldn't overhaul an engine or repair their brakes would be ignorant. We new guys are not ignorant, just haven't learned everything yet.

John

Once again, many people drive cars all thier lives and remain ignorant not only of major servicing but even chaging the brake pads, personally I'd never consider not doing that myself .. its only a 15 minute job but some people will drive a car all their lives and not be able to pick up the car technical manual and perform simple tasks....
I have used telephones all my life but they remain a mystery to me, especially the new fangled ones. I just have no interest even though I understand how they work .. i have no patience to take out the user guide... and settings like call divert and changing my voicemail message .. i just can't find the interest.

We are all born ignorant and we all die largely ignorant.
Inbetween you can just pick and choose what interests you Sehr glücklich
 
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jbs1136
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.10.2006, 15:47 Uhr



Anmeldung: 15. Jul 2006
Beiträge: 136
Wohnort: Spanaway, Wa
h2, Cathbard, Gowator,

I feel a lot better now. I guess it was just the word ignorant that bothered me. To me, it was someone who knew nothing about anything, no education to speak of and unable to accomplish mundane jobs. I see that this is not what you meant. Sorry about overreacting, I can sometimes be a little overly senstive I guess.

Yes, I do love to tinker with things and have learned most of my lessons the hard way, as I am sure some of my posts will bear out Smilie. I will add that this forum is one of the reasons that I stay with Kanotix, the members here actually help people like me!

Thanks for your comments,

John
 
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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.10.2006, 21:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 414
Wohnort: Auckland, New Zealand
Zitat:
The only thing I know, is that I know nothing.
Socrates

Zitat:
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.
Einstein

_________________
Linux is evolution, not intelligent design - Linus Torvalds
 
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