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jk
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 10.11.2006, 22:30 Uhr



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I could be wrong but, I thought I recently read only packages destined for etch should be introduced to sid. Anything not going into etch should to be put in experimental. If that's true, around when etch is released a Kanotix release could be set to use sid as usual or locked to etch. I think it would be a good option for the people who prefer sid as well as the people who would prefer to lock in on etch.
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 10.11.2006, 23:39 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::

And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.


Fairy Tale, Kanotix is NO Fairy Tale ?



It seems that you can't read. "fairy tale that Sid is stable" has nothing to do with "Kanotix is a fairy tale"

Do you need to have the last word? Very well. I don't care.

In any case I have never used Kanotix as a Sid distro. I have pinned testing much higher. This is a kind of behaviour which has always been considered as perfectly fine here.

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 10.11.2006, 23:56 Uhr



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wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
i simply think someone who wants debian etch- and says its the best distro ever, should install etch or ubuntu.


I can't see what Ubuntu has to do with everything.
And I didn't say that "Debian Etch" is the best distro ever", but "arguably the best Debian release ever"

It seems to me that some people forget too often that Kanotix can exist only thanks to Debian Stable. Sid is not developed by people with too much time on their hands, but in order to be moved to testing, and finally to become stable.

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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 00:48 Uhr



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I too wish that Ubuntu would not creep into every discussion.

Kanotix an least does not hide it's roots. Front page they give tribute to Debian

Let's check the front page of Ubuntu

http://www.ubuntu.com/

You have to click about ubuntu to see it and I only know that because of all the complaints about this.

I refuse to use a child based distro that hides its relations to its parents.

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 01:01 Uhr



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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::


I refuse to use a child based distro that hides its relations to its parents.


Well said. Same here and besides, is it only me who finds Ubuntu buggy as hell?

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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 04:30 Uhr
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eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ya know, guys, insulting Daniele doesn't exactly help her, or help Kanotix's reputation. IIRC, this "It's always worked for me, so what's your problem?" and "You're so stupid, why don't you try Ubuntu" attitude is why some people here started using Kanotix instead of Debian proper.

But, hey, if you Kanotix "team members" like to alienate people, keep it up.

Now, as far as not being able to print or access CDs goes, I'm not sure dropping to testing from unstable would help you much, Daniele -- I just installed stock Debian testing and upgraded it to unstable, and there isn't that much of a difference between the two, currently.

It might make more sense to back up your data and do a clean install of 2006-01-RC4.



eco2geek

Whats your gig ??

Who is alienating who

KANOTIX IS SID not ETCH, not TESTING, not STABLE, what is so hard to understand ?????

Who said who is STUPID

Kanotix's reputation is DEBIAN SID

About KANOTIX

KANOTIX is a Linux distribution based on Debian "sid". It usually contains the latest packages and kernels, carefully patched with fixes and drivers for most modern hardware. Although it can be used as a live CD, it also includes a simple graphical installer for easy hard disk installation. The user-friendly nature of the distribution is further enhanced by a custom-built Control Centre and specialist scripts. KANOTIX is supported on a multilingual forum, Wiki and IRC channel by the distribution's active and friendly user community.

Read more here

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=kanotix

http://kanotix.com/index.html


Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::

And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.


Fairy Tale, Kanotix is NO Fairy Tale ?



It seems that you can't read. "fairy tale that Sid is stable" has nothing to do with "Kanotix is a fairy tale"

Do you need to have the last word? Very well. I don't care.

In any case I have never used Kanotix as a Sid distro. I have pinned testing much higher. This is a kind of behaviour which has always been considered as perfectly fine here.


Once again

KANOTIX IS SID not ETCH, not TESTING, not STABLE

Has nothing to do with the last word, it's like me asking to install a .exe in linux Geschockt

In any case I have never used Kanotix as a Sid distro

NO COMMENT

It seems to me that some people forget too often that Kanotix can exist only thanks to Debian Stable

And debian Stable wouldn't be around if not for DEBIAN SID

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analogtek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 07:23 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Jun 2006
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In reguard to Etch. I have just changed my source list to point to etch. then I did a simple dist-upgrade. I ended up with what seemed to be Etch. Well it Booted like Kanotix but it run same.. Debian is debian... I see very little diff.... It all blurrs...
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 07:38 Uhr



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analogtek hat folgendes geschrieben::
In reguard to Etch. I have just changed my source list to point to etch. then I did a simple dist-upgrade. I ended up with what seemed to be Etch. Well it Booted like Kanotix but it run same.. Debian is debian... I see very little diff.... It all blurrs...


The only difference you would notice, once Etch is declared stable, you wouldn't have to upgrade/dist-upgrade. A stable, rock-solid OS until you get enough of it.

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wegface
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 07:55 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Nov 2005
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In a discussion about etch, only natural to bring the dreaded ubuntu up. Geschockt

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 08:00 Uhr



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wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
In a discussion about etch, only natural to bring the dreaded ubuntu up. Geschockt


I can't understand why...

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 08:31 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
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There is no reason for me to pretend artificial harmony.

I don't like Ubuntu for many reasons, the most important because it degrades intelligent human beings to stupid slaves of dog-brown pseudo-simplicity. Most people are clever - not stupid, and they therefore don't need to be dumbed down, or someone else to decide for them. It's that entirely inhuman philosophical approach of Ubuntu I can't stand. I believe it is very dangerous to educate people to NOT think any more (and just click and accept what is given). And they even do it in the name of self-called "humanity".

There are many other reasons, some technical, some questions of personal taste - but the above is the main reason why I actively fight Ubuntu, and not just silently let them go on (same for Microsoft and all those others who try to educate the next generation of slaves). Computers are important tools and political weapons in our world today, and what happens on them by default is very important. So, my motivation is actually a political one, you may say.

It's a tragedy that Mark Shuttleworth managed to attract several talented developers with his dog-brown vision. I feel deeply sorry for them, because he really made them believe that they would do something good - besides making money. He himself might even believe that he is doing the right thing. There is also a very nice community using and supporting Ubuntu, some of them mindless Windows refugees, but most of them again clever and talented people. It is time to open their eyes and help them to find a more critical point of view at their operating system.

Greetings,
Chris

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 09:10 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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Chris

I fully agree with you about Ubuntu and I always did.

Libranet/Kanotix are just installers and extra tools on top of Debian Proper.

Ubuntu is something entirely different. It almost gives me the creeps.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 10:08 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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Slam, if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute...

The reason Knoppix will always mean a lot to me is that, not only was it an amazing live CD, it was the first version of Debian I could get installed on my hard drive. (You can laugh at my first attempt to install Sarge, here.) After reading how Knoppix wasn't really meant to be upgraded, someone pointed me to Kanotix -- which was also very easy to install.

What Knoppix and Kanotix (and their respective forums!) did was allow me to learn how to use Debian, to the point where I no longer really needed "training wheels". (And Debian's become a lot easier to install, as well.) But if Ubuntu had been around then, I might have started with it instead.

Believe me, there are many, many people out there who want to use computers, but who do not want, under most circumstances, to dink around with editing configuration files, or learn about the "dpkg-reconfigure" command, or...you get the point. They just want to turn on their computer, have an OS come up, and be able to use a word processor or a web browser. It's just like how most people don't want to work on their own cars, they just want to drive them to work.

These are the people Ubuntu's aimed at. Think: They're using Linux when they could be using Windows!

OTOH, it kills me to read posts from Ubuntu fanboys who say things like, "It's time for Debian to die." (Someone actually said that on Slashdot.) Yeah, and where's your next version of Ubuntu going to come from, stupid? Fedora Core rpms?

Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
is it only me who finds Ubuntu buggy as hell?

I was going to play with Kubuntu last week, but their buggy installer wouldn't let me use an existing ext3 partition with data on it as the root partition unless I reformatted it first. So much for that!
 
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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 11:10 Uhr



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eco2geek: I fully agree with you that it is necessary to make installation and configuration perfectly easy and well documented. I really appreciate Ubuntu's contribution to the Linux world as far as improving usability is concerned.

However, my point was their restriction of choices by dumbing down Debian in several ways (creating own limited repositories, making packages intentionally incompatible for usage into and out of Ubuntu, deactivating several configuration choices, etc.).

Greetings,
Chris

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dedot
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 15:16 Uhr



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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
As to the stability of Kanotix... I can't print, I can't read an automounted CD/DVD (apparently I don't have enough permissions, even as root)...
And not everybody likes the daily updates, with all the uncertainties they bring.
And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.
I have been using Debian for longer than I care to remember, since the early times of Libranet, and I know people who have been using it for much longer than me. A Sid dist-upgrade can go fine one day, but bork your system beyond recovery the next. If you don't believe me, use apt-listbugs and you'll be very surprised.

SID is VERY stable, i've been dist-upgrading 3 days a week for more than 1 year the same Kanotix 2005-04 with very few issues (solved with the help of the forum, irc, kanotix news, successive dist-upgrades, etc) and I'm still using that installation with the latest kernels. When I have a problem, usually the fault is mine, not of the OS Winken It's always better to check out what really went wrong during the installation or while configurating something, before saying that the software has bugs.

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dedot
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 15:30 Uhr



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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
So, my motivation is actually a political one, you may say.

I don't think that Ubuntu is so brain damaging or politically dangerous, my motivation to "hate Ubuntu" is aesthetical: i can't use a dog-brown coloured system......

Talking seriously, i think that the most important motivations to criticize Ubuntu are the technical ones you mentioned before. I don't even think that ubuntu documentation is so useful (Open Synaptic, Click on Edit and select "Preferences..." Lachen ), I only like like their forums (only because there a lot of users and a lot of posts, sometimes interesting).

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 22:18 Uhr



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dedot hat folgendes geschrieben::

SID is VERY stable, i've been dist-upgrading 3 days a week for more than 1 year the same Kanotix 2005-04 with very few issues (solved with the help of the forum, irc, kanotix news, successive dist-upgrades, etc) and I'm still using that installation with the latest kernels. When I have a problem, usually the fault is mine, not of the OS Winken It's always better to check out what really went wrong during the installation or while configurating something, before saying that the software has bugs.


Aren't you presuming a bit too much? For how long have you been using Linux and Debian?
I was helping thousands of people in other forums and with other nicks much before Kanotix became a known distro.
Write in a Debian mailing list that "SID is VERY stable" and that one can't say "that the software (Sid) has bugs" and see what a fool they'll make of you.

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devil
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 22:26 Uhr
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daniele,
sid is not always stable, how could it be?
what makes it stable in the kanotix environment is the community, forum, chat.
and again: apt-listbugs means nothing.

greetz
devil

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 22:48 Uhr



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devil hat folgendes geschrieben::
daniele,
sid is not always stable, how could it be?
what makes it stable in the kanotix environment is the community, forum, chat.
and again: apt-listbugs means nothing.

greetz
devil


Devil,

So basically you agree with me.
Kanotix is stable when it is released, but you can not guarantee for the stability of almost 20,000 packages in Sid.
I know very well about apt-listbugs: normally it reports bugs which have already been fixed. But the new ones aren't reported anywhere.

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 11.11.2006, 23:25 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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It's hard to actually see any point to this thread, but just to add: it's not sid that's stable, it's kanotix that stabilizes sid. Fixes come out faster for issues with kanotix than sid, and some kanotix fixes turn out to become the debian sid fixes.

So for those who want the latest sid stuff, but can't deal with the instability of using debian unstable in its standard form, kanotix was born.

This is pretty simple, and hard to understand what the point is about arguing about this. Etch is easy to install for many hardware configurations, but will, over time, become fairly outdated, especially in parts of the software pool. Which makes it a perfect choice for those people who are completely satisfied with today's software packages, and don't care about getting the latest fix etc.

If for some reason kanotix decides to release a kanotix branded stable etch, that would make some sense in some ways, especially commercially speaking, but it would not, I think, be particularly different than stable etch, except maybe for the kernels.

What it comes down to is if there is time and energy available to do the proposed project. It's always interesting to see people recommend that x or y be done, but it's likewise interesting to note if the person who wants it done is willing to spend some time doing it.

Making a simple suggestion is always nice, but then going on about it beyond that point really starts demanding some more concrete effort on the part of that person... so get to work.

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dedot
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.11.2006, 00:50 Uhr



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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::

Write in a Debian mailing list that "SID is VERY stable" and that one can't say "that the software (Sid) has bugs" and see what a fool they'll make of you.

Lot of people will tell you that sid is relatively more stable than etch, not because sid software has fewer bugs, but because there are more Sid users than Etch: bugs are usually found quickly and (often) solved quickly.
I don't think I'm presuming too much: saying that the printer or the cd drive doesn't work because sid software is buggy is just an exaggeration.
IMHO (and i don't really care to tell you about how much i've been using linux, i'll just say that you're the only one presuming too much: you're criticizing kanotix sid and you said that you've never used kanotix as a sid distro!) i confirm that kanotix sid has been (and is) very stable.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.11.2006, 04:14 Uhr



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Now that we've had that discussion, assuming we're all still speaking to each other Winken -- perhaps it might be more productive to find out what specific problems Daniele's having and try to help her solve them.

Daniele? Yes, no, maybe?
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.11.2006, 04:46 Uhr
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Post subject: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?

I think the problem has been solved ??????????????????

I expect a good amount of flames, but I don't mind, as I am pretty sure that my suggestion is a good one.

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.11.2006, 07:33 Uhr



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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Post subject: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?

I think the problem has been solved ??????????????????

I expect a good amount of flames, but I don't mind, as I am pretty sure that my suggestion is a good one.


I did expect some flames, but not quite as many. I didn't expect people to be so fanatical. Obviously I was wrong.

And yes, the problem has been solved:

slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Besides all that and back on topic:

Kano was talking about the possibility to prepare a Kanotix-improved Etch after it has reached it's final shape. He did not promise anything, however.

So, stay tuned - your wish may come true. Winken



Therefore, this is the end of the thread as far as I am concerned.

But not before giving you some food for thought:

http://wooledge.org/~greg/sidfaq.html

Zitat:
What is unstable?

Unstable is where packages go after they've been uploaded by the maintainer, and cleared for release by the FTP master. If you use an unstable package, the only thing you can say with any certainty is that it compiled on the developer's system. It may contain *horrible bugs*.
---------------------------------------------------------

Should I use sid on my desktop?

If you think you can handle a broken Debian system, sure. Do you know what to do if libpam0g breaks, preventing all logins? Do you know what to do if grep breaks, causing the boot process to hang forever? These things have happened. They will happen again.

If you'd like to avoid the brown-paper-bag bugs like these, then use testing instead.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Should I use sid on my server?

Are you insane? No!


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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.11.2006, 09:45 Uhr
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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::

I did expect some flames, but not quite as many. I didn't expect people to be so fanatical. Obviously I was wrong

Should I use sid on my desktop?

If you think you can handle a broken Debian system, sure. Do you know what to do if libpam0g breaks, preventing all logins? Do you know what to do if grep breaks, causing the boot process to hang forever? These things have happened. They will happen again.

If you'd like to avoid the brown-paper-bag bugs like these, then use testing instead..

Should I use sid on my server?

Are you insane? No!



IMHO nobody flamed you, you came to a debian sid forum and requested that it makes some changes to become Etch (next stable version of debian)

Can you imagine if I went to the Debian,MEPIS,Ubuntu,Libranet etc..........forums and made a request that they make there next version SID.............Geschockt

or better yet going to a M$ site and requesting that they do there next version Open Source and base it on SID

I personally couldn't do it, I know better and that would only be asking for trouble or better yet a FlameWar

Of course someone here did mention that

"team members" like to alienate people, but to me, that person seemed to be steaming things up that didn't need to be and starting something that wasn't happening.

Your questions were answered (and slam gave you a reply about a maybe), 3-4 people didn't like the answers, and that is going to ruin the reputation of kanotix and debian sid.

I have used almost every distro on distrowatch (starting at mandrake 7, so not very long) and Kanotix which is based on SID is more stable than any other "stable" distro out there (my opinion) that includes Etch which I also use.
Etch will be like sarge is now 2 days after it's release obsolete. There is nothing wrong with that for people who want that. But it don't take a rocket scientist (not the Australian rock band or Hugh Blumenfeld) to come to a Unstable forum and request that it changes it's ways.

This is not about the last word, this is about you and someone else who thinks you are getting flamed when in the end, "you made the bed", and me getting blamed (team member) for ruining the rep of SID and Kanotix.

You may now have the last word, I don't want it.


If you'd like to avoid the brown-paper-bag bugs like these, then use testing instead......

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