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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.12.2006, 15:31 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
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Wohnort: Paris-France
PlatinumPlus hat folgendes geschrieben::
Why do people hate Ubuntu so much?
That's a long answer....
For me its the sudo policy and refusal to discuss it.
The fact they repackage all the packages specifically so they won't work with Debian .. or to work around the su issues depending how you view it...
You could add the fact the forums have 100,000 n00bs and about 6 people who actually understand the basics of linux... ?? or just that its killing its parent distro???
Zitat:

Does it not work?

Sometimes .... but the more you want to do with it or take control the harder it gets... its targetting n00b users from Windows and trying to make linux act like Windows.... most of us are using linux because we don't like the way Windows works... the last thing we want is linux being progressively turned into a OS we detest.

Zitat:

Is it not linux? Does it not send CDs for free yet there are distro that make you pay?

linux is a kernel... pure and simple... is Ubuntu a distro...??? depends...
I don't count kanotix as a distro..I class it as a stabilisation of Debian unstable... that doesn't make it any less incredible but kanotix is "just" Debian unstable made usuable for everyone... and everything in Kanotix is PURE debian...
In contrast nothing in Ubuntu is pure Debian, its hacked Debian and nothing useful goes back to Debian, its a one way process...
Even if Ubuntu fix bugs is useless because they already hack it so much to save the user having a root password...
This introduces security problems in itself and to make pure Debian from Ubuntu is back engineering... a waste of time.

Its easier for the Debian devs to fix the bugs from scratch or security audit from scratch than a Ubuntu package...

Yes they send FREE CD's... yes that's good but that doesn't make it a good distro...

Just an example, I use closed source photo developing SW... they package it for debian... but the Ubuntu people are complaining its unstable... of course its unstable its NOT designed for Ubuntu...
For every tweak they have to make for Ubuntu it makes it more unstable in Debian!
My paid for $120 software is becoming useless because of Ubuntu users complaining it doesn't work in Ubuntu...

the same goes for everything like driver support .. the debian ones are if Ubuntu continues trying to kill Debian not going to be available and only work with Ubuntu... or be unstable in Debian... My printer I bought because its supported under debian... Samsung give .deb drivers... but if they change these to work for Ubuntu they no longer work for Debian...

but largely Ubuntu is nothing without debian, they take all the code and rehack it... they can't stand on thier own feet so they are like a child living at their parents place stealing money from their parents wallets and slowly poisioning their parents in the hope of inheriting everything!
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.12.2006, 16:26 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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Gowator hat folgendes geschrieben::

but largely Ubuntu is nothing without debian, they take all the code and rehack it... they can't stand on thier own feet so they are like a child living at their parents place stealing money from their parents wallets and slowly poisioning their parents in the hope of inheriting everything!


Very, very good. It is one of the best Ubuntu characterizations I have ever read. It even helped me understand why I hate Ubuntu so much.

_________________
Italien ohne Sizilien macht gar kein Bild in der Seele, hier ist der Schluessel zu allem.
- Wolfgang Goethe 1787 -
 
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maslota
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.12.2006, 12:32 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Apr 2005
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Zitat:

In contrast nothing in Ubuntu is pure Debian, its hacked Debian and nothing useful goes back to Debian, its a one way process...

You should look at changelog of xorg debian package. Ubuntu is not an evil personified. I don't like their sudo policy, but I could point something I don't like in every main stream distribution.
 
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pfe1223
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.12.2006, 13:24 Uhr



Anmeldung: 18. Jul 2006
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I kind of like sudo, but I guess that makes an outsidre around here. While it is true that you use most all of their code from Debian, they have played a major role in getting Xorg to work (just like maslota said).

What I think people should be concerned about is Ubuntu's usage of closed source software. Launchpad is the best example of this. It complies information from anything from bugs, track technical requests, handle translations, etc. Shuttleworth said he would opensource it, but has yet to do so. In fact he encourages people to use Launchpad with their projects. Google has shown us that information is power, and it looks like Shuttleworth is trying to closely guard this power. Upstart is another project that is not yet open sourced. There are a million reasons to distrust Ubuntu, but I think that it is only fair to recognize that they do some good work for Debian. Now if you wanted to say that they take more than they give back, well...
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.12.2006, 14:07 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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pfe1223 hat folgendes geschrieben::
I kind of like sudo, but I guess that makes an outsidre around here.


Sudo has never worried me. All it takes, if I remember correctly, is "sudo passwd root"

It is everything else that worries me, especially this funny feeling of "a child who wants to murder his parents"

Ubuntu zealots who write all over the places: "Debian must die" doesn't help for sure.

_________________
Italien ohne Sizilien macht gar kein Bild in der Seele, hier ist der Schluessel zu allem.
- Wolfgang Goethe 1787 -
 
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michael7
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.12.2006, 23:34 Uhr



Anmeldung: 24. Mai 2005
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I share many of Daniele's opinions, especially about the not-so-veiled effort by Ubuntu zealots to undermine Debian. I, too, have seen the "Debian must die" graffiti, even in the comments section of distrowatch.com. After reading the Debian Social Contract ( www.debian.org/social_contract ), I think any reasonable person would find this behavior sick.

Debian represents so much that is good and right about the free software movement. I can not comprehend why anyone, with the exception of M$, would want to attack and destroy it. Regardless, I'm not worried because the Debian product is too good. Yes, it takes a bit more configuring than, say, Kanotix but it is rock solid. Besides, how can you destroy something that is being created by an all-volunteer organization for all the right reasons?

Enough already. I don't think any of this is productive. I'll just go my merry way, using Debian and hoping that Kano decides to use the "testing" repositories of Debian (with the occasional unstable package, of course) as the foundation of the new Kanotix.

_________________
Debian Social Contract
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.12.2006, 23:51 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
.

Debian represents so much that is good and right about the free software movement. I can not comprehend why anyone, with the exception of M$, would want to attack and destroy it.


Exactly. Isn't that an extremely interesting question to ask?

_________________
Italien ohne Sizilien macht gar kein Bild in der Seele, hier ist der Schluessel zu allem.
- Wolfgang Goethe 1787 -
 
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morris
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 18.12.2006, 00:37 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2005
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Well,
If we think about how the real world out there goes, perhaps we'll start realizing that chances are that a multi-millionaire like Mr. *buntu, *could* have _some_ money invested in stock market ..... how goes the capitalization of Debian these days, compared to M$'s ????? Winken Winken Winken

Just my two cents, a little OT and I apologize for that, but we have to consider things like these to understand the real dynamic of strange long-term attempts we are seeing these days. (IMHO)

morris
 
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arcturus
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 19.12.2006, 23:12 Uhr



Anmeldung: 29. Mar 2005
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With all the discontent among Debian developers, the latest one HERE, is it any wonder?

Thank goodness Ubuntu came along. Some one needed to give the Debian dev's a kick in the a** and Ubuntu is just the ticket.
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 20.12.2006, 22:15 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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Wohnort: Italy
arcturus hat folgendes geschrieben::
With all the discontent among Debian developers, the latest one HERE, is it any wonder?

Thank goodness Ubuntu came along. Some one needed to give the Debian dev's a kick in the a** and Ubuntu is just the ticket.


If you believe that dictatorship is better than Democracy and Freedom, then you are right.

_________________
Italien ohne Sizilien macht gar kein Bild in der Seele, hier ist der Schluessel zu allem.
- Wolfgang Goethe 1787 -
 
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chipsburner
Titel: does it really matter what its based on?  BeitragVerfasst am: 21.12.2006, 19:10 Uhr



Anmeldung: 04. Jun 2006
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Hello, I am basically a Mepis user. That being said, I always follow Kanotix, (and PCLinuxOS too) and perhaps now Sidux, but to a lesser degree. Kanotix has worked on hardware that no other distro will, even on laptops without a hard drive (at least 2006 rc4 did, have not tried 2006-1 rc's to see if they will yet), so I do use it on some computers. It has been a great distro, and deserves a shot at the top of distrowatch where it belongs.

I do think Kano is doing the right thing by leaving the sid repo's. Its perhaps the only way to create a more mainstream, popular with newbies, and less problem upgrading distro. I have to say what I liked about Kanotix was the hardware support and how great everything seems to work after a fresh install from the live cd.

Warren at Mepis, already went thru this change. Change is not easy, Mepis lost base users, as Kanotix will too, but also gained many new users. Its perhaps worse for Kanotix, as it seems that they are losing many good people who helped develop the distro to the new Sidux project.

I was one of the ones that was against the Mepis move to ubuntu repo's. But have changed my mind after the release of Mepis 6, which is a lot better than 3.4.3 based on Debian (breaks easy ungrading). Have never really like Ubuntu much.

That being said, about Ubuntu, also the millionare who is behind it, there are a lot of good things about ubuntu we should think about if Kano does choice it. Mark Shuttleworth does donate the money to support it, that cannot make him all bad. Yes at some point he wants to get a return on his money, but its the server version (service support too) that he plans on selling. How can you hate a distro that gives away there system, and even free cd's, and their work based on Debian. Next point, ubuntu steals from Debian, wrong. While ubuntu would not exsist without debian, as basically ubuntu debs are debian debs, with only about 5 to 10% being slightly reworked, enough to break Kanotix based on sid, if u used ubuntu repo's at this point. What Debian has stood for it the purest GPL out there. And that means it ok to use their debs and even modify them. As long as the debs (ubuntu) continue to be GPL. Same is true with many other distro's, PCLinusOS uses Mandrivia RPM's with some mod's and creates its own repo's. Hate sudoing? I do too, fortunately, Mepis based on ubuntu repo's is still Mepis, without that sudoers thing in it. I would suspect a kanotix based on ubuntu would not change either.

When Mepis was in the decision process of changing repo's, I made several suggestions there. 1. change to Debain Stable (well, that would make a very very stable but old and almost useless distro compared to others) 2. continue with both a distro based on Debian sid and another one based on ubuntu, as least for awhile. (probably too late to do this now, as many of the devs have bolted) This would at least, save many of the base users, and give them a chance to look at the ubuntu based kanotix too. But its twice as much work, with a smaller team now.

One thing I do know for sure. If Kano does release a Kanotix based on ubuntu, you know we just going have to download, burn, and try the live cd. His work is just too good not to try. Kano has made some hard decisions here, and deserves all our support, whatever he decides to do. He gets very little funding for all his free work.
 
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arcturus
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 21.12.2006, 22:06 Uhr



Anmeldung: 29. Mar 2005
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Chipsburner, excellent post! It certainly carries more authority than the whiners who resort to accusation and innuendo. Yes, Kanotix will lose a number of their followers no doubt. So be it, progress always means change. Mepis is a great example.
 
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anticapitalista
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 21.12.2006, 23:16 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2005
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Wohnort: Greece
Mepis is indeed a good example, but, I would argue not for what arcturus implies..

When Mepis decided to use the Ubuntu repos, there was/(is) a great deal of hostility amongst Mepis users. Some, maybe even most, followed Warren, others had to find a new home. Quite a few changed distros and ended up here or straight debian, others continued with Mepis 3.4.3 (the last debian one) and changed the repos to include sid and not only etch as by default, and upgraded through the help of this forum (that is basically what I did, though I also had Kanotix already installed on another partition). Those who didn't change were basically left on their own and now have all sorts of problems upgrading their system through the debian (Etch) repos.

Now this is the biggest difference.

Some ex-Kanotix devs haven't just whined and resorted to accusation and innuendo at all. Instead they have set up an alternative for those who want to continue the Sid/Kanotix tradition. So for Kanotix users "progress always means change" has 2 choices. Follow whatever Kano chooses (and I sincerely wish him the best of luck, as I do with Warren at Mepis) or go with the ex-devs at Sidux.
Unfortunately Mepis didn't offer the second to its users.

_________________
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
 
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maia
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 00:25 Uhr



Anmeldung: 19. Nov 2006
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Wohnort: frankfurt
i simply don't understand all the talk here about kanotix-sid having been too unstable. of course sid is unstable by definition and dist-upgrades could sometimes produce problems (even though fixes were quickly given here or in irc). but if you find that too complicated or time-consuming you always have the choice of going the lazy way by not dist-upgrading and waiting for the next rock-solid stable kanotix (now: sidux) release and doing a simple update install. there might even be a sidux dvd release soon so that you don't even have to install too many additional programs. so, where is the problem? i don't see any and no need for ubuntu-repos either...
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 01:10 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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maia hat folgendes geschrieben::
so, where is the problem? i don't see any and no need for ubuntu-repos either...


Exactly. There is no problem nor any need for Ubuntu repos. I can see only a couple of Ubuntu zealots who are being arrogant and rude, as it is normal for them.

_________________
Italien ohne Sizilien macht gar kein Bild in der Seele, hier ist der Schluessel zu allem.
- Wolfgang Goethe 1787 -
 
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aking469
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 14:11 Uhr



Anmeldung: 14. Feb 2006
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Danielle, That is exactly what I have done on my 2 desktop computers. I installed 2005-4 and haven't changed them. I have updated programs as I saw fit. Otherwise, I have left the kernel and then OS alone. I am geeky enough to get the codecs I wanted, install programs I wanted, and use Debian repositories/packages, but I didn't want to have to "fix" the system repeatedly. I use Kanotix because of the stability and ease of use, not because I want to be cutting edge. I have tried others...haven't gotten rid of Kanotix yet....but, have gone to OSX via a MacBook for my laptop. I don't know how all of this is going to play out. But the characteristics that Kanotix displays , the ability to change the system w/o herculean efforts, the use of synaptic, the Debian base, are what I wanted in a Distro. The other "easy" distros seem to be too restrictive. I can't as easily do the things I wanted. Sidux does look interesting. But, they already are saying not to DU......man I do not have hours each day to spend making sure my computers work. Sure Ubuntu is a bit annoying, but if that is what it takes to stay stable and productive...so be it.

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Guerilla Penguinista
 
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maia
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 15:16 Uhr



Anmeldung: 19. Nov 2006
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then, aking: what's the point? you put the iso-file on your hard drive, install sidux fromiso and after 10 min you have a stable linux on your machine. you install some additional programs and codecs via apt-get, do some configuration work ... et voila.

you haven't got the time and/or nerve to bother with the problems emerging eventually from dist-upgrades? fine, so you simply do not dist-upgrade your system and wait three, four months for the next stable release instead. then you do an update-install via cd, do some apt-get install for the missing programs (takes you half an hour max) and you live in tranquility for the next three, four months, and so on...

so there is no stability problem whatsoever. and even if you are dist-upgrading, what you are not obliged to do, btw, you can easily prevent your system from not running: just copy an image of your system before dist-upgrading (partimage!) and restore your old system in case the dist-upgrade produces major problems.

i admit that ubuntu or suse with their m$-like feeling may be fine for those new to linux. but increased stablility with ubuntu is a myth.


Zuletzt bearbeitet von maia am 22.12.2006, 15:31 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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morris
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 15:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2005
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@Daniele,
ditto.

N.B.: I've been an *happy* user of Mepis, Ubuntu and the likes, before installing Kanotix, and I'm grateful to Kano for all he did for it.
I can understand his needs to change, really, but I honestly think I'd have chosen to stay with Mepis (or K-Ubuntu), if my choices were between Ubuntu and Ubuntu.

@chipburner: I think I get your point, and you're absolutely right when you say that's perfectly legal to take from Debian the way Ubuntu's doing: that's GPL(s). My point is that I see a strategy in doing this this way, while I see few others considering different agendas, but could be my personal paranoia .... Winken

I agree with Maia in seeing no problems in sid, after all linux is all about
*learning* to use an os, and that strange feeling of wetting your feet when you face things not going the way you want are part of my everyday job (yes, I use sid at work .... Geschockt).
In my experience it's all in installing what you _need_, knowing it at your best, and being careful before upgrade-update. Nothing unrealistic.

I'm just spending my two cents.

morris

-Timeo danaos et dona ferentes - Winken
 
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shadowcr
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 17:33 Uhr



Anmeldung: 17. Apr 2005
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There's a third way to use an OS. As maia already mentioned, you can either dist-upgrade, if you're daring and if you can compensate lost time by working twice as hard. Or you can let your system become stale, only upgrading with the next release.

But imagine this scenario: the installed OS is one month old, the next release date is uncertain. I want to install a little program, let's make it of the k-variety. Now I can either wait some months, or risk breaking my system by upgrading all kinds of dependencies. Not good choices.

With Ubuntu, or any other stable base, I don't run into these kinds of forced choices. It simply runs. For people who are not obsessed with shiniest innovations (why don't you run experimental then, anyway? sometimes Sid considerably lags behind Ubuntu), that's a very good thing.
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 20:04 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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Wohnort: Italy
Let's call it it testing, instead of Sid.
Testing has a lot fewer bugs and it is normally only a couple of weeks behind Sid, bleeding edge enough almost for everybody. The only time when you shouldn't use testing (or Sid, for that matter) is immediately after a release.
As to Sid lagging behind Ubuntu, that is a contradiction in terms, if it is true that Ubuntu is a Sid snapshot (I know, Ubuntu will have a more recent Gnome)

_________________
Italien ohne Sizilien macht gar kein Bild in der Seele, hier ist der Schluessel zu allem.
- Wolfgang Goethe 1787 -
 
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maia
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 22.12.2006, 21:26 Uhr



Anmeldung: 19. Nov 2006
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shadowcr: yes, you could get some dependency problems. especially when release cycles are stretched too long as it was the case with kanotix this year. with 3-4 sidux-releases a year the problems shouldn't be that big anyway and if there are dvd-releases as well, dependency problems due to installing additional software are minimized once more.

but what would you really win by sticking to ubuntu? the main-repos are maintained, yes, and problems only occur from time to time. but what about universe/multiverse? nearly everyone using ubuntu gets a bunch of programs from these repos and there you can get - by installing this and that - many stability problems as well and the concept of a "simply running" ubuntu quickly becomes wishful thinking.
 
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chipsburner
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 25.12.2006, 06:42 Uhr



Anmeldung: 04. Jun 2006
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anticapitalista hat folgendes geschrieben::
Mepis is indeed a good example, but, I would argue not for what arcturus implies..

When Mepis decided to use the Ubuntu repos, there was/(is) a great deal of hostility amongst Mepis users. Some, maybe even most, followed Warren, others had to find a new home. Quite a few changed distros and ended up here or straight debian, others continued with Mepis 3.4.3 (the last debian one) and changed the repos to include sid and not only etch as by default, and upgraded through the help of this forum (that is basically what I did, though I also had Kanotix already installed on another partition). Those who didn't change were basically left on their own and now have all sorts of problems upgrading their system through the debian (Etch) repos.

Now this is the biggest difference.

Some ex-Kanotix devs haven't just whined and resorted to accusation and innuendo at all. Instead they have set up an alternative for those who want to continue the Sid/Kanotix tradition. So for Kanotix users "progress always means change" has 2 choices. Follow whatever Kano chooses (and I sincerely wish him the best of luck, as I do with Warren at Mepis) or go with the ex-devs at Sidux.
Unfortunately Mepis didn't offer the second to its users.


I would have to agree with you Anti, that Mepis should have continued at least provided some support for the Debian based 3.4.3, or better still released some Mepis distros based on Debian as well as Ubuntu repo's. Not wise to put all your eggs in the ubuntu basket. He would have at least kept all his base that way. Now it would have been a lot more work for him, but really he should have done it. Now only support for 3.4.3 on Mepis, is basically you. No more kernel upgrades for 3.4.3 by
Warren anymore. Any questions, I referr them to you, as even the mods are suggesting upgrades to Mepis 6 mostly.

But Warren and Kano are going do what they think right for them and their distro's, not what I think. Somehow, Sid, must be a lot of work compared to the Ubuntu repo's to keep patched and working for a distro like Kanotix or Sidux. The timing to release a distro based on
Sid was probably critical. Take for example, Mepis 3.4.3, USB flash drives worked in RC3, but not the finial, only a couple of weeks later. Sid was undergoing a lot of new files (changes) at that time. Kanotix had a release of 6 weeks difference when Mepis 3.4.3 came out, and everything including the flash drives seemed to work in it. I do think this was a very bad time to be trying to author a distro based on Sid, but the Kanotix team did manage it. Perhaps, Sid has settled down a lot since then.

I do think Kanotix based on Ubuntu repo's will be a better more stable (upgrading) disto for new users, but perhaps, not, for power users. Not that power users will see less apps, as I have been able to basically use debian deb's whenever a ubuntu one is now available without any problems so far. Not that I would not eventually. I do think the ubuntu deb's are hacked a lot less than people think. Its basically still just Debian.

Still, you just got to love the thinking behind pure Debian itself.
 
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littlepeon
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 10.01.2007, 19:21 Uhr



Anmeldung: 29. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 15

hey there....i've been on vacation far away from computers for a while, so i just now heard the BAD NEWS.....
IMHO, what made Kanotix special was the fact that it made SID work and work well! to its credit, i have seen about 6 or 7 distros that are based on Kanotix--NOT Ubuntu and not "pure" Debian SID. It was one of the few that added enough pieces that made a WHOLE distro and not just parts (exampe: Operator, Damn Small Linux, STD).Not only that, but in the resent release candidates the focus seemed to be on the look and feel of the system (beryl.splashy,etc.) Alot of work and programming has gone into making SID work--something it doesnt do from just an "apt-get dist-upgrade"(if there is any argument about that, just look at all the fix-xxx scripts included w/Kanotix)
The co-operation of Kanotix with the Debian repository was what attracted me to it. Ubuntu/Freepire/Mempis are all dependent on their repackaged versions of the software....if a person wanted to be dependent on a company for releasing software fixes, then they might as well use $Microsoft$ !!! (Heck thats why most people use SID instead of stable Debian--the quicker updated to software) I recently got into a long debate on the Freespire forum about the longevity of that O.S.----as i stated there, i have seen Debian grow and flourish while Debian based distros come and go (Corel, Stormix, Libranet, Genie O.S.)
Most people i know instead of using another version of Ubuntu will "cut out the middle-man" and just use Ubuntu----although i HATE it, it has quite a following.

Good Luck in the NEW YEAR (2007)
-Peon
 
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