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Titel:
 Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 20:30 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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yes, hot swapping ide is quite entertaining, it requires a special controller card if mobo doesn't handle it. But I'm glad you mentioned that, it's an important thing to understand, you can't hotswap standard ide in most mobos.
There's no issue at all with the ide trays if you turn them on before boot however, and turn them off after shutdown. That's with standard mobo ide connections.
However, if you want the best of both worlds, you can get the cru sata drive enclosure, then get the cru sata+ide tray, that converts ide to sata, which will work around the issue, since it's a sata connection.
And, the sad truth is, having just priced it, you're better off going sata all the way, since you can buy a new sata 160 gig drive for about $70, give or take a few dollars.
But long term, might as well just go with sata, it's faster anyway. And ide hard drives are going away now.
Zitat:
it also doesn't loose performance to the pci - USB/ firewire bidge (external S-ATA enclosures are slowly appearing in the wild).
And boy, do they lose performance, let me tell you, transfer rates if sata is also running on pci bus, which older sata does, to firewire drive, or any pci card mounted drive, plummets. New sata, and all ide, does not have this issue as far as I know.
Those external sata enclosures, by the way, so far as I've seen only support pci-e mobos, but that's a great option if you have a new mobo, but still not cheap, those will drop in price. But will require a pci-e sata controller card in any case, same pci problem. The trays are the cleanest solution I know of. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 21:11 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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My Kanotix is currently installed on an 40G ATA Western Digital.
At newegg.com I can buy this SATA HD: HITACHI Deskstar 7K80 HDS728080PLA380(0A30356) 80GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive for $38.99,
or an ATA HD:
Western Digital Caviar WD400BB 40GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive for $41.99.
The Hitachi SATA drive is double the capacity & cheaper, so that looks like it might be the best choice. I don't know why I would need to remove a drive so the cru dataport v link that h2 provided may be overkill for my backup purposes. I just want to have something I can fall back on in case I bork my current install. That way I'll feel more comfortable about DU-ing and other experimenting once I learn how to properly backup & restore. Would installing an internal HD & connecting it with a USB cable do this? Again, I apologize for my ignorance. Thanks, Kurt |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 21:19 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 185
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For external usb/firewire enclosures, the best are MacAlly's:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... amp;Go.y=0
I had a cheapy plasticky one before that and it was slow and croaked within a year (doing only monthly backups).
I've transferred a lot of data on firewire w/o problems (USB 2.0, despite being theoretically faster, has so much overhead that Firewire400 is muchhhhh faster for backups. Firewire800 is nearly as fast as an IDE connection if you have a Firewire800 port on your system). That said, if you have an eSATA port on your computer, or can plug in a tray w/ a SATA drive, that's full speed and low overhead. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 03:42 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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Kurt, everyone is talking about a removable drive option. From what you say, your needs are much simpler - you just need to add another hard drive to your computer. If your motherboard can take SATA, then get the SATA. If it is an older machine, like 3 or 4 years old, chances are it cannot. In that case, get an ordinary ATA IDE drive. I'm sure there are cheaper ones than the one you found. If you want SATA and connect via USB, then you need to buy an additional enclosure that can accept the drive you buy, and have a USB connection. Booting off the USB drive can sometimes be problematic, I think. Alternatively you can transfer your data to the USB drive, carve out another partition on your main drive and use that as your alternative system.
I think there are also PCI cards that allow you to connect SATA directly, which might be a better option. I could be wrong... I don't use SATA. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 05:26 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| stryder: Thanks for the reply--that answers my questions. My computer is less that 3 yrs old & I have 3 more USB slots avaliable to use. I won't be booting off of the drive, but just using it as a storage medium. I also have a 9G partition that's empty & reiser formatted. As far as transfering data goes, could I also just use the cp command to move data there? Having another HD would have some advantages though I think. Thanks again. |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 07:20 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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| As long as the partition/drive is mounted properly you can cp anything anywhere, especially as root. In fact if in livecd you mount your main partition (say hda1) and your 9gig partition, say hda2 to /hda1 and /hda2, then (as root or sudo) cp -a /hda1/* /hda2 should transfer your whole system over. Then you add some entries to your menu.lst to have a new pointer to your hda2 system, comment out initrd, and you have 2 systems. It's that simple. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 08:48 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| Wow, thanks alot for that information. That certainly is simpler than some other things I've been reading. I'm printing that out to add to my notebook of how-to's. I don't trust my memory as much as I used to. |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 11:19 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 09. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 121
Wohnort: Brisbane Australia
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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
.. then (as root or sudo) cp -a /hda1/* /hda2 should transfer your whole system over. ...
Actually you should use "cp -ax /media/hda1/* /media/hda2/". The -x is important as it stops other file systems such as /proc/, /media/*/*, etc being copied. This simple procedure does work as I have used it to move my existing installation to new partitions and new disks. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 11:21 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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Oh, I forgot to mention, before you boot your second system you need to edit /etc/fstab (in your second system, ie /hda2/etc/fstab) using a text editor as root and change the root mount. For example, you should change
/dev/hda1 (assuming this is your main system partition) / reiserfs defaults etc...
to
/dev/hda2 / reiserfs defaults etc...
and if you had /dev/hda2 mounted elsewhere then that will have to be commented out. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 11:29 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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markb hat folgendes geschrieben::
Actually you should use "cp -ax /media/hda1/* /media/hda2/". The -x is important as it stops other file systems such as /proc/, /media/*/*, etc being copied. This simple procedure does work as I have used it to move my existing installation to new partitions and new disks.
Ah, that's useful.  I normally copy over systems that I am NOT booted in (which was why I said "in livecd") so that I don't copy contents of other mounted partitions accidentally. That should take care of /proc/ right? |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 20:00 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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just to be clear, while cp I assume will work as long as you don't have mounted stuff, and of course, if you do it from another partition or the livecd, it should work fine [although I don't know about filepermissions and all that being maintained], the key difference between cp, which is a blanket approach, and rdiff-backup, is that rdiff-backup will backup intelligently, first time run, it backup up everything, next time it backup up only files that have been changed. So backups are much faster the more often you do them.
For stuff like dist-upgrades, this is worth thinking about. There are many other features of real backup programs, no matter which one you use, that makes them highly preferred, although it's hard to argue with the sheer simplicity of cp, lol.
The removable hard drive tray might sound complicated if you've never used it, but it's not. It's actually the simplest removable backup solution you can use in my opinion, and by far the fastest, most stable, and most reliable.
And with prices like > 50 for a hard drive, and about $50 for a sata tray plus container, that's the same or less as most usb or firewire units.
But of course, usb and firewire has the advantage of being portable to other machines, which is a good thing as well. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 23:13 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| Am I correct in assuming using rdiff-backup you should still add entries to the /boot/grub/menu.lst & edit /etc/fstab? |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 01:20 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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h2,
Excellent work on the script.
I have not been around in a bit and forgot about holding off on the dist-upgrade a few months back when told too and lost graphics.
I waited a little longer....today,to try and fix.I used your script...fixed some pakages that were holding me up/back and got graphics.There were something like well over 900 pakages that needed upgradeing not to mention the kernel was way outdated.This is a 2005.4 install.
Anyway,after proceeding on with your script,I believe it was the xorg7-fixup part that I had lost graphics again.
errors are;
cannot locate file for xorg-driver-fglrx,pakage may need to be fix manually...whatever that means.
Also trying different things I got fglrx-driver needs reinstall but no archive found....that landed me the previous error.I believe I got that on graphics driver install.
Radeon grphics is what I need.
I wish I left all alone when I got the gui back and was at my desktop,but I went back to init 3 and proceeded on with the script.
I know its not borked beyond recognition,I just need some guidence.
Since I have not been around for quite some time I will spend the night looking back through months of threads related.
Thanks. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 03:26 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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Ironwalker, I don't use radeon stuff following the good advice I got here, so testing the radeon parts of those scripts is their weak point. I added a note to that affect on the script to alert users that they are on their own so to speak if they are using radeon.
However, I checked irc:
"fglrx" is (#1) update-scripts-kanotix.sh : [Alt] + [Ctrl] + [F1] & login as root ; install-fglrx-debian.sh, and (#2) use -r option to remove modelines while installing (to fix out of sync errors)
Translation: go into init 3 as root; run this command: install-fglrx-debian.sh -r
Doesn't seem to have many bad issues, just do that and see if it fixes it.
Radeon has been consistently problematic for people, but I haven't followed that at all.
My guess is that yes it can be fixed, fairly easily.
I doubt it's the xorg stuff that broke it, that's just kano's initial xorg fix, plus reinstalling xorg parts to make sure they are there, that's all that happens.
If you got that error on the attempt to install the radeon graphics driver, the last step that is, it's probably using an out of date radeon installer, that script grabs the installer from kanotix.com, but now the installer comes standard in kanotix, but I'm not sure if it's will be installed by itself on 2005-4, I believe not.
I've tested this one on many different boxes, all either nvidia or neutral older cards/chipsets, and it works fine, but radeon is definitely a challenge. Luckily for you, kano uses radeon on his box so it's possible you can get some better quality help on that specific issue.
If you tried fglrx driver install and got the no archive found, it just means it's an out of date script I think.
Try to simply run this command: install-fglrx-debian.sh
directly, my suspicion is that the script that was in kanotix is slightly different, I checked, it is, but I don't know the differences.
Again, far more people had problems with radeon over the last months than with nvidia, and I haven't really followed the radeon stuff at all since I can't test it.
<added>I updated the script to now no longer use the version of fglrx install located on kanotix.com/files, but to use the local version, which wasn't present before, but now is.
<script update>Coming soon for those few people using the script: it will remember your selections and not repeat questions when you run the script next time, so you'll only have to answer each fix one time. Future versions of the script will retain the responses. With self updating script, that should make dist-upgrade slightly more safe for those people who don't feel like checking irc every day for new issues before doing du, or homepage of site. What can I say, I like scripting stuff, and shell scripting, though very limited, is fun. |
Zuletzt bearbeitet von h2 am 05.06.2006, 04:09 Uhr, insgesamt 3 Male bearbeitet
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 03:50 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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2radical:
Zitat:
Am I correct in assuming using rdiff-backup you should still add entries to the /boot/grub/menu.lst & edit /etc/fstab?
I'm not clear on the question, do you mean is the backup drive added in /etc/fstab? It is if you want it to be, doesn't have to be since if you use externel firewire or usb drives, hal/udev handles the mounting for you.
But you could make it less hit and miss I guess by adding a label for that drive in /etc/fstab, have to look into that.
but I think that's not what you are asking.
Rdiff backup is just a backup program that backs up where you tell it to, it doesn't have anything to do with etc/fstab or grub, but now I see what you are asking, no, it's not a cp type thing, it's a true backup, not a copy of the partition.
the rdiff backup data is not an image of your system in any way at all, it's just data, files, etc, with meta files to let rdiff know what the latest versions of your stuff is. That's another feature by the way, rdiff doesn't overwrite changed files in itself, it adds them to itself, which means you can roll back to earlier backups or file versions if you want.
It's very clever. cp is simply creating a copy of your current partition's data, that's it. And in cp, if you switched partitions to boot, though I wouldn't do that personally, I'd just overwrite the failed install with the copied partition's data.
It just gets confusing having two version of the os on the box, it's easier to say, ok, hda2 is my main system, for example, and hda5 is the backup, cp, rdiff-backup, makes no difference. Then if you need to restore, just use the livecd and restore the hda5 to the hda2 [partitions just given as examples]. It's much less confusing that way.
However, make absolutely certain that your cp uses the right command line options on restore and on backup to maintain all file ownership and permissions. Otherwise you're essentially totally scr$wed when you try to restore.
rdiff does this automatically. which to use just depends on you, rdiff takes reading some instructions, mike sheppard has them in faqs, that works fine on standard restores etc. You write the backup script one time and use that for backups, no thinking, which I like. I don't mind thinking one time to do something, but I don't like to have to remember stuff that might end up destroying my box every time I do something as simple as a backup. I'm lazy that way. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 03:56 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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Thank you.
I like that site you linked to as well....yours? *saved!*
Yeah,I never had a problem with ati before,well,nothing so bad as I needed to go nvidia.
Right now,like I said,I have been out of the loop for a bit and forgot quite a bit too so its some trial and error and some reading.I appreciate your reply and I will figure it out.Seems the only errors I get is...no drivers in xorg logs.
Apparantly,no modules for fglrx as well but was assumeing thats because the drivers didnt install.
Thanks,it has been a long time since I spent this many hours on kanotix.  I will chalk that up to ignoreing my daily dist-upgrades and what-not.
For what it's worth,I got all those 900 or odd so pakages updated without a hitch. 
I will fix tomorrow....thanks again. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 04:09 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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Kind of stuck now....I know,its bedtime but I have to get past this.
Any apt-get dist-upgrade,remove,or install wants to remove xorg-driver-fglrx but it keeps erroring out even with -f with;
dpkg divert:rename involves overwriteing 'usr/lib/libGL.so.1' with different file 'usr/lib/fglrx/libGL.so.1.xlibmesa',not allowed.
dpkg: error processing xorg-driver-fglrx (--remove)
xorg-driver-fglrx partially installed
driver-fglrx not installed.
I was trying to remove the first to try the second but it wont remove. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 04:11 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 04:29 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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Well,when one didnt work I tried the other....it didnt work either.Now I keep getting dependancy problems but I do not see any listed.Purging config files fail in the process of install-fglrx-debian.sh -r .
I cannot get the full errors but it fails...with -r or without.
I cant think right now so I have to rest a bit.I know its something stupid and simple.
dpkg: dependancy problems prevent configuration of fglrx-kernel-2.6.16.16-kanotix-1:
fglrx-kernel-2.6.16.16-kanotix-1 depends on fglrx driver (=8.25.18-1);however:
pakage fglrx driver is not installed.............................................(makes sense,install it,but it doesnt install.)
dependancy problems......leaveing unconfigured. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 07:13 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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I'm not up on the fglrx stuff at all, there may be a special fix. Hopefully you are running a fairly standard install, kde, no gnome, and all that.
After watching the distupgrade game for the last 6 months, I decided that if I am using debian sid based distros, I am definitely not doing anything involving a lot of extra packages, like running gnome.
I'd say the top group of people I see with dist-upgrade failures, after the standard updated in kde, not init 3, didn't apply fixes, and that type of issue, is the ones with highly customized installations. Not surprising, of course.
To be clear, did you at any point remove or purge any stuff while trying to fix it? In other words, did you take extra steps that are not part of the normal apt procedure? That makes it very hard to diagnose if you did, unless you remember each thing you did. Also if you remember what was removed etc.
Rereading your error stuff though, it sounds to me like you might have just hit a bug in the kanotix kernel/fglrx installer. I don't know how many people here run radeon stuff, but it's not as many as nvidia, so the testing debugging isn't going to be as good, and radeon stuff isn't as well done in the first place from what people say. Kano is the main radeon tester from what I've gathered, so unless you run his exact setup, you might have issues, hard to say.
going nvidia was definitely the best move I made when I finally decided to go with linux for real, although I wish there were non proprietary drivers out there, or different chipsets I could use for my video cards, simple stuff, I don't game so I need nothing more than basic features. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 08:53 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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ironwalker:
irc: they should try either noml or choose next older driver from script
noml is 'no-modelines'
delete all modelines
Prefered option is to chose next older driver from script. I can't see how to do that off the top of my head, maybe tomorrow will show it. |
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Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 14:51 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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h2: Thanks for the great explanation--I have a much better understanding now
kurt |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 21:31 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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Thank you h2....no,nothing out of the ordinary was removed or purged.Nothing extra,no gnome.Standard kde.
I had it working fine so I will just rename one of the backup xorg conf's that I had it working with in xorg7.
Thanks.
I probably wont get direct render working but at least I can get my gui back.
Now that I recall,there were a few upgrades in graphics with the older install radeon script that failed to allow direct render on.I am useing a 9800 pro card.I do have a spare gforce 5600 but really would like to keep the ati. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 22:25 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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ironwalker, that's good to know, not an issue with the script then I think if you had this problem before.
Keep in mind that the xorg fixes are different, and necessary, for xorg 7 to work, so the xorg you use will have to have those fixes. If in doubt, you can just run the script over it again, that will fix the xorg without installiing the non working radeon driver.
The only difference is that you just say no to all the options except the fix xorg option, since you've already done them all.
Or you can just run the fix-xorg7.sh by itself, you can get the url from irc, type in !xorg and it will give you the information you need. But it's the same stuff as on the script. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 22:39 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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Fixed!
I was stuck on all updates and what not in apt because it stopped instantly because it couldnt remove xorg-driver-fglrx....I deleted the /usr/lib/libGL.1.so and /usr/lib/fglrx directory and re-ran the fglrx install script,I have my kde desktop back. |
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