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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 30.11.2006, 21:32 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::

etch (although not too far behind) can prove frustrating when used to sid. And Sid without the help of a tight nit, and fairly small community is probably too much hassle for me. Debian forums are huge and you dont get any "dont dist-upgrade today" warnings or quick fixes.


Actually Etch and Sid are very near in terms of being bleeding edge right now. And I really can't see any good reason why one couldn't use Etch for *at least* 6 months after it goes stable.

As to Debian forums not giving any advice on Sid, the reason is very simple: during all these years I can't remember a single Debian forum not warning against the use of Sid. The general Debian wisdom is that Sid should only be used to report bugs to Debian. Unless you are a very advanced user (read: developer) who can fix the bugs on his/her own.
Would you use an alpha or a beta of any other distro as your daily OS?

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devil
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 30.11.2006, 21:36 Uhr
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kanotix is not any other distro. we achieved to get unstable as stable as possible, no matter what the elite at debian says.

greetz
devil

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 30.11.2006, 21:53 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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devil hat folgendes geschrieben::
kanotix is not any other distro. we achieved to get unstable as stable as possible, no matter what the elite at debian says.

greetz
devil


Maybe so, but I was replying to wegface about using Debian Sid in its pure form. Only for a very selected few.

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anticapitalista
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 30.11.2006, 22:19 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2005
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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
devil hat folgendes geschrieben::
kanotix is not any other distro. we achieved to get unstable as stable as possible, no matter what the elite at debian says.

greetz
devil


Maybe so, but I was replying to wegface about using Debian Sid in its pure form. Only for a very selected few.


This is exactly what I (we) will miss with Kanotix no longer being based on Sid. The fact that people here post warnings/solutions to any possible Sid problems.
I use a variety of distros, Mepis 3.4.3, a Mepis 3.4.3 remaster (both fully Sid dist-upgraded), Kanotix 2005-04 (fully dist-upgraded) and Debian Sid netinstall (fully dist-upgraded) and to tell the truth the only place where I get reliable advice/warnings is here. Mepis no longer caters for its debian distro users and Debian itself, as Daniele points out, basically gives warnings not to use Sid and leaves you on your own.

For me there is now a huge hole and it remains to be seen if it can be filled. I sure do hope so.

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phen
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 30.11.2006, 22:47 Uhr



Anmeldung: 10. Nov 2004
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Code:

This is exactly what I (we) will miss with Kanotix no longer being based on Sid. The fact that people here post warnings/solutions to any possible Sid problems.


and, like devil said, to get unstable as good as stable, while with a handling soft as butter! from my point of view: superior (sic)! and for that, the whole team has my respect!
i'll watch and tryout kanotix (or whatever the upcoming project will be called), but i'd like to stay with sid, though for the times to come i'll have to learn much, much more!
 
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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 00:03 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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There's two ways of approaching any Linux distro that makes its developmental repositories open to the public:
  • Install the distro, only install security updates/package updates provided by the "mother ship," and wait until a new release comes out to reinstall the whole distro and get major updates; or
  • Install the distro, and find and install development updates as soon as they're available.

Take openSUSE, for example. If you want KDE 3.5.5 and X.org 7.1, you'll either have to wait until the release of 10.2, or mess around with "unsupported" development packages. Just like with Kanotix, it really helps to have a user community that can help you deal with the bugs.

The payoff, of course, is that you get to use new features long before they make it into the "stable" release.

AFAICT, Kanotix is "Debian Sid in its pure form". And Kanotix has made it accessible for people like me who don't, say, know how to fix the occasional deb package post-install script error.
 
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ice
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 06:39 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Feb 2005
Beiträge: 106

Kanotix was a brilliant distro, in that it provided an answer to certain existing conditions:

1. The Debian installer sucked
2. Testing was obsolete
3. Sid was stable enough

Neither #1 nor #2 hold true anymore, as anyone who has installed one of Etch daily snapshots will testify. As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.
 
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Mike Shepard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 08:53 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 250

I too find this somewhat dishearting. After using Kanotix since the 2004-02 version, I've gotten used to seeing the updates posted, same people in the forums and irc helping out, news updates, etc. Basically the routine many of us have fallen into of checking forums everyday, popping into the irc, checking for new releases, etc. It's sad that all this is going to change (some may argue that it won't be that big a change) not to say that the change won't be good, and choice of distro's put out by people we've grown to know and trust will be nice. They say all good things must end, it's just hard to face it when it actually happens. I'm sure everything will work itself out fine but I do think there might be a bit of a rocky road ahead. Obviously, most of these things (forum and such) will be mostly the same but it's going to be kind of a start over for everyone with testing a distro to see how it suites us and such, which ought to be interresting. It's actually something many of us thought we would never be doing - looking for a replacement to our kanotix distro (the current one based on sid), although I am going to try to keep mine going as long as possible (till a d-u borks it).
As much as this saddens me (I too would like it to remain sid based), from what I've reading it sounds like something that needs to be done and I wish the best for Kanotix and all the projects spawning from this (which I'm sure we'll all be trying also). At least in the case of Kanotix, I'm sure which ever route is taken when the change is finalized will lead to a very excellent distro, based on the previous work put out by Kano and team. I also look forward to the future and to where these changes will lead us..


Many thanks to everyone involved for giving me a great distro to use these past years and new ones to use in the future.

Cheers,
Mike

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vilde
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 15:11 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Apr 2006
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I'm always calling my self a user and neither a developer nor a programmer, I have used and tried many Linux-distributions with the start of, if I remember right Red Hat 5 or 4. So far Kanotix is the over all best I ever tried. Debian Sid or something else as base, I don't really care although I never understood what Debian Sid is more than the newest of the newest or something like that. The main reason for me to use Kanotix is:

1 - Very good hardware detection.
2 - The best, fastest and most friendly forum I ever joined.
3 - Easy upgrading with h2:s script

I hope this will go on and I thank everybody who has done Kanotix to what it is and I hope that it will go on being the best Linux distribution.

Ola
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 15:38 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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Wohnort: Italy
ice hat folgendes geschrieben::

3. Sid was stable enough
---------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.


Nice to read that somebody else feels like me, for once.

There was a time when Sid was reasonably stable, possibly due to the slow Debian release cycle. Now things have changed, Debian is in a state of continuous flux (except of course for stable) and therefore Sid resembles an alpha.
I don't believe anybody will be able to track Sid for long, without risking to become insane. That is just ordinary common sense.

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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 16:11 Uhr
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LOL

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gs
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 18:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 06. Jan 2005
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@ ice: you write that "Kanotix was a brillant distro" - I would say, Kanotix still is a brillant distro
and if you have it running on your computer to your satisfaction, just leave it untouched by dist-upgrades and you will have, for years - thats how long they have been using WinXP in the windows world - a brillant distro, no need to constantly dealing with security issues
and in the meantime, watchout, as most of us do, where Kano is going......
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 20:23 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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gs hat folgendes geschrieben::

and if you have it running on your computer to your satisfaction, just leave it untouched by dist-upgrades and you will have, for years - thats how long they have been using WinXP in the windows world - a brillant distro, no need to constantly dealing with security issues


Well, here is what each of us could do: get read of Sid in your sources list and replace it with Etch. Keep dist-upgrading until Etch is declared stable.
Once Etch becomes stable, there won't be any need to dist-upgrade any longer, but you'll have some 19,000 packages you could download. That is what I have after adding some extra repos.

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 22:05 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
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Zitat:
I don't believe anybody will be able to track Sid for long, without risking to become insane. That is just ordinary common sense.

For everybody believing that the above sentence is very much true:
If you insist in believing in your own insanity - check out alternatives to Daniele's point of view. Winken
@Daniele: Your opinion is very much appreciated and has become common sense already now here. Probably that's the right moment to retire from marketing it even more ...
Debian is a world of possibilities and probabilities for everybody who is interested in exploring them. stay cool and tell all of the story ...
Greetings,
Chris
P.S.: Ah, yeah. Please stay away from Goethe, if you still feel you need to "educate the world".

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anticapitalista
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 22:57 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2005
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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::

Well, here is what each of us could do: get read of Sid in your sources list and replace it with Etch. Keep dist-upgrading until Etch is declared stable.
Once Etch becomes stable, there won't be any need to dist-upgrade any longer, but you'll have some 19,000 packages you could download. That is what I have after adding some extra repos.


Yes, but you seem to be missing the point about what Kanotix stood for (deliberate use of the past tense). Kanotix, as has been pointed out already on this thread, was deliberately set up as a distro for debian sid users. Its advantage over debian sid pure was that it was/is easier to install, comes with lots of useful scripts to help install non-free drivers and packaged onto a livecd.
That, and the great work by people on this forum, basically 'tamed' sid. It is this (sorry for repeating myself) that will no longer exist, whatever path Kano chooses (etch or Ubuntu).

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 22:59 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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@ slam

If you insist:

Round 1: Kano is still the boss here and he seems to share my views (and now I understand why so much hatred just for suggesting a one off Kanotix release based on Etch).

Round 2: we'll talk about that in one year or two.

As to Goethe, sorry, I didn't know it was your personal property.

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 23:16 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
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@ Daniele: The person making fire is very much appreciated in the wilderness - someone has to do it, finally. However, feeding the fire inside a FOSS project simply shows complete misunderstanding of what's going on and what it is all about.

Besides that, I wish you the very best for your personal Debian Stable/Testing campaign - which simply never had anything to do with KANOTIX.

Goethe isn't anyones property - fortunately. However, surrounding yourself with his words shows affinity, at least. And affinity does not necessarily imply anything further ... (and yes, I changed my 2nd signature line exclusively for you).

Greetings,
Chris

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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 01.12.2006, 23:36 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
@ Daniele: The person making fire is very much appreciated in the wilderness - someone has to do it, finally. However, feeding the fire inside a FOSS project simply shows complete misunderstanding of what's going on and what it is all about.

Besides that, I wish you the very best for your personal Debian Stable/Testing campaign - which simply never had anything to do with KANOTIX.



Which fire are you talking about? Many of you (developers and team members) have already moved to http://sidux.com/
There can't be any fire without wood.

That Testing had never anything to do with Kanotix is simply untrue: who took care that the instructions to track Testing instead of Sid disappeared from the front page?

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 02:27 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
Well, here is what each of us could do: get read of Sid in your sources list and replace it with Etch. Keep dist-upgrading until Etch is declared stable.
Once Etch becomes stable, there won't be any need to dist-upgrade any longer, but you'll have some 19,000 packages you could download. That is what I have after adding some extra repos.

Daniele, you know as well as we do that the day after Etch becomes "stable," the "testing" repo will have new packages in it. Most of us would be dist-upgrading testing if we ran it, just like we dist-upgrade Sid. There might be fewer bumps along the way, but there'd still be bumps.

So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

(Personally, I don't care about the unstable vs. testing issue. As I understand it, the packages filter down pretty fast.)

slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
"Life's a bitch, and mine's getting better every day."

That was fast.
 
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Daniele
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 02:46 Uhr



Anmeldung: 23. Mai 2004
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eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::

Daniele, you know as well as we do that the day after Etch becomes "stable," the "testing" repo will have new packages in it. Most of us would be dist-upgrading testing if we ran it, just like we dist-upgrade Sid. There might be fewer bumps along the way, but there'd still be bumps.

So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.



Hi eco2geek

I wasn't really trying to make any point. I was mainly replying to gs.

However Stable should be bleeding edge enough for at least a few months after release.

Testing, on the other hand, is normally very chaotic for a few months after a release.

So my opinion would be: run Stable for a few months, then dist-upgrade to testing if you want something more bleeding edge.

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DeepDayze
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 03:15 Uhr



Anmeldung: 08. Dez 2005
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h2's scripts work well in helping people get thru the bumps in Sid. Perhaps they can be useful (with adaptations for other sid-based distros)
Also Kano's scripts are very well done...hopefully they will be improved further and adaptable to other flavors of Sid
 
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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 03:53 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
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ice hat folgendes geschrieben::
Kanotix was a brilliant distro, in that it provided an answer to certain existing conditions:

1. The Debian installer sucked
2. Testing was obsolete
3. Sid was stable enough

Neither #1 nor #2 hold true anymore, as anyone who has installed one of Etch daily snapshots will testify. As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.


I think you misunderstand Debian nomenclature. Etch != testing. Etch is a name for the current distribution of Debian.

When talking of a distro based on Etch that now means a distro based on stable not testing.

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UncleDeadley
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 04:43 Uhr



Anmeldung: 24. Jun 2006
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DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
h2's scripts work well in helping people get thru the bumps in Sid. Perhaps they can be useful (with adaptations for other sid-based distros)
Also Kano's scripts are very well done...hopefully they will be improved further and adaptable to other flavors of Sid


Not necessarily. I thought h2 said that his script was merely implementing all the fixes that others made. His script won't be making any new fixes if the people (all listed in the beginning of the script) making the fixes leave.
 
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ice
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 07:05 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Feb 2005
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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::

Besides that, I wish you the very best for your personal Debian Stable/Testing campaign - which simply never had anything to do with KANOTIX.

Slam,

I never quite understood your rationale for sticking to a repository that has gone to pot; from stable enough to disfunctional enough in, what, one year?

A year ago Kanotix ranked #14 on Distrowatch; now it ranks #23 behind the likes of Puppy, Sabayon and Perspire. Do you have another explanation as to what caused Kanotix to sink faster than Bush's approval rating?
 
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ice
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 02.12.2006, 07:28 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Feb 2005
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DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
h2's scripts work well in helping people get thru the bumps in Sid. Perhaps they can be useful (with adaptations for other sid-based distros)

Here it is: the kiss of death of another Linux distro Smilie

Bumps? H2's scripts? Excuse me, but that's not the way Apt is supposed to work. How long do you expect Kanotix to survive when you have to resort to kludges and such-and-such emergency script to fix things that break down with a routine upgrade?

That's the reason why ditching Sid is not only reasonable, it has become mandatory.
 
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