kanotix.com
Anything goes - A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
Daniele - 09.11.2006, 00:42 Uhr
Titel: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
I know that what I am going to write will sound crazy to many: Kanotix has always been based on Debian Sid.
But consider the following:
1)Nobody can deny that 11 months have elapsed since the last stable Kanotix release. Now, for a distro based on something which changes very fast (Sid), that is a contradiction in terms, IMO.
2)Once Debian Stable is released, the majority of Debian users will use it for *at least* 6 months, but most for much longer, some even for its entire lifetime.
3) Debian has become very easy to install. However the Debian installer can't be compared with the Kanotix one, which is a lot easier even for an absolute newbie. But even more important, Debian hardly has any tools to configure it, except for the ones which come by default with KDE or Gnome.
So you realize what my suggestion is, by now: why not release a version of Kanotix based on Etch, once it goes gold?
Such a release would be of great benefit to the whole Debian community and wouldn't (really) become obsolete until the next Debian Stable. Besides it should really be rock solid and free of any bugs.
I am not a developer, but I suppose it shouldn't be too difficult to do.
I for one would be very grateful and I'd go back to my old habits of generous donations if such a release were to become reality. Or I would simply buy it.
I expect a good amount of flames, but I don't mind, as I am pretty sure that my suggestion is a good one.
Crest - 09.11.2006, 00:59 Uhr
Titel: RE: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
Well, I'm using Kanotix because the good hardware support and quite easy installation (OK, Bughunter wasn't really my cup of tea, so I continued using Knoppix at that time). There is surely quite some time between the releases, but on the other hand you can make your daily or weekly dist-upgrade (when fast internet is available) and you'll always have a bleeding edge Debian Sid based system.
For me the 'one CD distribution' Kanotix is also more than enough, I have simply no need for downloading several ISOs to have a 'complete' Debian system. When I need something additional then I will apt-get install it. If someone wants Debian Etch then he/she is invited to install Etch. And actually I think Kanotix is one of the best Debian Sid based distributions. For this fact alone it's needed and shouldn't change to be a lightweight Etch distribution.
Daniele - 09.11.2006, 01:06 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
Crest hat folgendes geschrieben::
For me the 'one CD distribution' Kanotix is also more than enough, I have simply no need for downloading several ISOs to have a 'complete' Debian system.
I don't mean that Kanotix should turn into a 3 DVDs distribution like Etch. Just one single CD as it is now, but based on Stable.
Also I do not mean that such a release should be *instead* of the Sid based ones. It should be a one off (clearly)
jackiebrown - 09.11.2006, 02:18 Uhr
Titel: RE: Re: RE: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
No disrespect, but the nice thing about Kanotix is that it takes a "stable" snapshot of sid and puts it on a cd. I imagine that that is most of the work.
Etch, when it becomes stable, will always be stable and would need this (except for hardware support.)
I guess you could probably grab the release before the Etch freeze and make that your "Etch" cd. A simple dis-upgrade would bring you up-to-date and it should be a small one (only bug and security fixes.)
Of course, I believe you said that you have a 64 bit machine (like me) so this wouldn't work for you unless you go 32 bit.
I use 64 bit Debian installed from one of the net-installers. I don't care what some say, I notice a speed increase using the 64 bit branch.
Daniele - 09.11.2006, 02:42 Uhr
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
Etch, when it becomes stable, will always be stable and would need this (except for hardware support.)
Yes, but I believe that is the best part of Stable, except if you buy new hardware. Besides there will be backports in time.
Zitat:
Of course, I believe you said that you have a 64 bit machine (like me) so this wouldn't work for you unless you go 32 bit.
Indeed, that is the case, but considering that some software doesn't yet work in Debian 64 bit, I am considering going 32 bit.
jackiebrown - 09.11.2006, 03:07 Uhr
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
I wrote the comment you quoted backwords (as you can probably tell by the context) --> should have been will always be stable and wouldn't need this
anticapitalista - 09.11.2006, 23:46 Uhr
Titel:
Actually what I would like to see is a debian sid kanotix that offers a choice of what to install ie kde or something lighter eg fluxbox so you have more control over you 'final' installed Kanotix or a sort of mini Kanotix, also sid-based.
I know there is the CPX mini (I used the old one for a while), but as far as I am aware, it is not officially supported.
There are going to be lots of computers presently using windoze with about 128-256 RAM that will become useless soon with the arrival of Vista. The present Kanotix is far too heavy for those sort of boxes. It would be nice if there was a Kanotix/sid to take the place of windoze on them.
Crest - 10.11.2006, 01:35 Uhr
Titel:
Well, M$ can't force the users to upgrade to Vista, they will just continue using their old Windows the long their applications are running. Win2000 is also my last M$ OS but I will surely continue using it for quite a while besides Linux. Runs since 2001 pretty stable without any reinstall and had never a virus 
piper - 10.11.2006, 05:04 Uhr
Titel:
Why is the question ???
Why do people want Etch, please install Etch
Why do people want Stable, please install Sarge or wait for Etch to become Stable
Kanotix is SID which equals UNSTABLE
Everyone who reads about Kanotix before they download it should know it is based on SID.
I dist-upgrade EVERY SINGLE DAY with no problems, and "if" there is one, I go to IRC or here and it is "usually" a very quick fix.
If you run a system that can't afford to be "messed up" by running SID then maybe you should have not installed it.
I believe that Kanotix is a hell of alot more stable than some of the distro's out there period, I am a distro whore and have many distro's installed, I can't find ONE that beats Kanotix.
jackiebrown - 10.11.2006, 05:20 Uhr
Titel:
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Why is the question ???
Why do people want Etch, please install Etch
Why do people want Stable, please install Sarge or wait for Etch to become Stable
Piper, you know I usually agree with you, (in fact I stay in sid as well so no benefit for me either) but that is faulty logic. Because the next line of reasoning on this would be
Why do people want Sid, please install Sid
The benefit of Kanotix is the scripts and hardware support that are added on top of Debian Sid and that would hold true for all versions.
That said, I realize I am not a Kanotix developer.
I think a release right before the freeze would equate to almost the same thing as an Etch stable release as I mentioned earlier.
piper - 10.11.2006, 05:55 Uhr
Titel:
jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Why is the question ???
Why do people want Etch, please install Etch
Why do people want Stable, please install Sarge or wait for Etch to become Stable
Piper, you know I usually agree with you, (in fact I stay in sid as well so no benefit for me either) but that is faulty logic. Because the next line of reasoning on this would be
Why do people want Sid, please install Sid
The benefit of Kanotix is the scripts and hardware support that are added on top of Debian Sid and that would hold true for all versions.
That said, I realize I am not a Kanotix developer.
I think a release right before the freeze would equate to almost the same thing as an Etch stable release as I mentioned earlier.
I don't see it as faulty logic considering Kanotix is what 97-99% SID.
Yes I should have added an important part that you said about the scripts & hardware support, that is where Kanotix shines and is much better than ............
Daniele - 10.11.2006, 07:49 Uhr
Titel:
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Why is the question ???
Why do people want Etch, please install Etch
Why do people want Stable, please install Sarge or wait for Etch to become Stable
Kanotix is SID which equals UNSTABLE
Everyone who reads about Kanotix before they download it should know it is based on SID.
I dist-upgrade EVERY SINGLE DAY with no problems, and "if" there is one, I go to IRC or here and it is "usually" a very quick fix.
If you run a system that can't afford to be "messed up" by running SID then maybe you should have not installed it.
I believe that Kanotix is a hell of alot more stable than some of the distro's out there period, I am a distro whore and have many distro's installed, I can't find ONE that beats Kanotix.
Yes, I have always known all that. I am only suggesting a one off change, something different for once. Or are we so much against any change?
As to the stability of Kanotix... I can't print, I can't read an automounted CD/DVD (apparently I don't have enough permissions, even as root)...
And not everybody likes the daily updates, with all the uncertainties they bring.
And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.
I have been using Debian for longer than I care to remember, since the early times of Libranet, and I know people who have been using it for much longer than me. A Sid dist-upgrade can go fine one day, but bork your system beyond recovery the next. If you don't believe me, use apt-listbugs and you'll be very surprised.
In any case, there was a time when, due to the very slow release cycle of Debian, Sid could be reasonably stable for (long) whiles.
That is no longer the case, as the Debian release cycle has become a lot faster.
wegface - 10.11.2006, 11:17 Uhr
Titel:
I hear Ubuntu is warm this time of year.....
Daniele - 10.11.2006, 11:23 Uhr
Titel:
wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
I hear Ubuntu is warm this time of year.....
So what?
slam - 10.11.2006, 11:35 Uhr
Titel:
Zitat:
A Sid dist-upgrade can go fine one day, but bork your system beyond recovery the next. If you don't believe me, use apt-listbugs and you'll be very surprised.
Well, only the person not using correctly and/or not understanding apt can "bork a system behind recovery". A proper prepared and done dist-upgrade is never a problem, specially if you read our daily news before and follow the fixes we publish (if they are necessary).
Ah, I forgot: Non-Debian dirty packages (or - even worse - manually circumventing the package management by installing in a non-apt way) can bork a system behind repair.
Greetings,
Chris
devil - 10.11.2006, 11:40 Uhr
Titel:
...and apt-listbugs only puzzles you.
i used it for a while, ignored it for a while without doing any harm. purged it.
dist-upgrade dayly and i havn't borked the system 'beyond repair' since being a real newb.
greetz
devil
slam - 10.11.2006, 11:50 Uhr
Titel:
Besides all that and back on topic:
Kano was talking about the possibility to prepare a Kanotix-improved Etch after it has reached it's final shape. He did not promise anything, however.
So, stay tuned - your wish may come true. 
Greetings,
Chris
Daniele - 10.11.2006, 12:00 Uhr
Titel:
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Besides all that and back on topic:
Kano was talking about the possibility to prepare a Kanotix-improved Etch after it has reached it's final shape. He did not promise anything, however.
So, stay tuned - your wish may come true.
Greetings,
Chris
Very well, thanks. So my idea is not so crazy after all
Etch is arguably going to be the best Debian release ever. With Kanotix improvements it could be super.
hubi - 10.11.2006, 13:03 Uhr
Titel:
Hope, good old sid will continue to be the base for the traditional Kanotix. I still need some things fixed in the kernel for intel hda sound on my new laptop (there is still a problem with acpi and irq, and i do not want to run noacpi).
Stable Etch will be great for most of today's hardware but probably not for future hardware. Nothing beats sid for that, and nothing beats Kanotix to make it work easily.
hubi
piper - 10.11.2006, 16:15 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.
Fairy Tale, Kanotix is NO Fairy Tale ?
no problems, and if I do, it is fixed within 15 minutes, I too ran libranet since day one, what does that have to do with anything ?
Don't download and install a distro (SID) if you want testing, stable, this thread makes no sence to me
This reminds me of people telling bill gates that we want M$ open source cause there are too much spy/malware/virri, etc......... simple solution is to change what you don't like (distro), if everyone bitches about Kanotix being SID, then why use it, I agree with the boob..... err..... ubuntu comment.
slam - 10.11.2006, 16:48 Uhr
Titel:
Haha, thanks Piper for the inspiration - welcome to the world of BOOBUNTU:
piper - 10.11.2006, 17:28 Uhr
Titel:
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Haha, thanks Piper for the inspiration - welcome to the world of BOOBUNTU:
hehe, just wanted to see my babe again thnx
The_Seeker - 10.11.2006, 17:42 Uhr
Titel:
Zitat:
hehe, just wanted to see my babe again Smilie thnx Winken
Bloody hell! It's like a dead heat in a zeppelin race.
eco2geek - 10.11.2006, 22:07 Uhr
Titel:
Ya know, guys, insulting Daniele doesn't exactly help her, or help Kanotix's reputation. IIRC, this "It's always worked for me, so what's your problem?" and "You're so stupid, why don't you try Ubuntu" attitude is why some people here started using Kanotix instead of Debian proper.
But, hey, if you Kanotix "team members" like to alienate people, keep it up.
Now, as far as not being able to print or access CDs goes, I'm not sure dropping to testing from unstable would help you much, Daniele -- I just installed stock Debian testing and upgraded it to unstable, and there isn't that much of a difference between the two, currently.
It might make more sense to back up your data and do a clean install of 2006-01-RC4.
wegface - 10.11.2006, 22:24 Uhr
Titel:
eco2geek: well thats not exactly what was written above, no need to spice things up. I personally meant no real disrespect with my comment- i simply think someone who wants debian etch- and says its the best distro ever, should install etch or ubuntu.
Personally i have etch installed as a backup system incase anything else goes wrong. But i cant see what use a kanotix etch would be- but im not Kano so....
jk - 10.11.2006, 22:30 Uhr
Titel:
I could be wrong but, I thought I recently read only packages destined for etch should be introduced to sid. Anything not going into etch should to be put in experimental. If that's true, around when etch is released a Kanotix release could be set to use sid as usual or locked to etch. I think it would be a good option for the people who prefer sid as well as the people who would prefer to lock in on etch.
Daniele - 10.11.2006, 23:39 Uhr
Titel:
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.
Fairy Tale, Kanotix is NO Fairy Tale ?
It seems that you can't read. "fairy tale that Sid is stable" has nothing to do with "Kanotix is a fairy tale"
Do you need to have the last word? Very well. I don't care.
In any case I have never used Kanotix as a Sid distro. I have pinned testing much higher. This is a kind of behaviour which has always been considered as perfectly fine here.
Daniele - 10.11.2006, 23:56 Uhr
Titel:
wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
i simply think someone who wants debian etch- and says its the best distro ever, should install etch or ubuntu.
I can't see what Ubuntu has to do with everything.
And I didn't say that "Debian Etch" is the best distro ever", but "arguably the best Debian release ever"
It seems to me that some people forget too often that Kanotix can exist only thanks to Debian Stable. Sid is not developed by people with too much time on their hands, but in order to be moved to testing, and finally to become stable.
jackiebrown - 11.11.2006, 00:48 Uhr
Titel:
I too wish that Ubuntu would not creep into every discussion.
Kanotix an least does not hide it's roots. Front page they give tribute to Debian
Let's check the front page of Ubuntu
http://www.ubuntu.com/
You have to click about ubuntu to see it and I only know that because of all the complaints about this.
I refuse to use a child based distro that hides its relations to its parents.
Daniele - 11.11.2006, 01:01 Uhr
Titel:
jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
I refuse to use a child based distro that hides its relations to its parents.
Well said. Same here and besides, is it only me who finds Ubuntu buggy as hell?
piper - 11.11.2006, 04:30 Uhr
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eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ya know, guys, insulting Daniele doesn't exactly help her, or help Kanotix's reputation. IIRC, this "It's always worked for me, so what's your problem?" and "You're so stupid, why don't you try Ubuntu" attitude is why some people here started using Kanotix instead of Debian proper.
But, hey, if you Kanotix "team members" like to alienate people, keep it up.
Now, as far as not being able to print or access CDs goes, I'm not sure dropping to testing from unstable would help you much, Daniele -- I just installed stock Debian testing and upgraded it to unstable, and there isn't that much of a difference between the two, currently.
It might make more sense to back up your data and do a clean install of 2006-01-RC4.
eco2geek
Whats your gig ??
Who is alienating who
KANOTIX IS SID not ETCH, not TESTING, not STABLE, what is so hard to understand ?????
Who said who is STUPID
Kanotix's reputation is DEBIAN SID
About KANOTIX
KANOTIX is a Linux distribution based on Debian "sid". It usually contains the latest packages and kernels, carefully patched with fixes and drivers for most modern hardware. Although it can be used as a live CD, it also includes a simple graphical installer for easy hard disk installation. The user-friendly nature of the distribution is further enhanced by a custom-built Control Centre and specialist scripts. KANOTIX is supported on a multilingual forum, Wiki and IRC channel by the distribution's active and friendly user community.
Read more here
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=kanotix
http://kanotix.com/index.html
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.
Fairy Tale, Kanotix is NO Fairy Tale ?
It seems that you can't read. "fairy tale that Sid is stable" has nothing to do with "Kanotix is a fairy tale"
Do you need to have the last word? Very well. I don't care.
In any case I have never used Kanotix as a Sid distro. I have pinned testing much higher. This is a kind of behaviour which has always been considered as perfectly fine here.
Once again
KANOTIX IS SID not ETCH, not TESTING, not STABLE
Has nothing to do with the last word, it's like me asking to install a .exe in linux 
In any case I have never used Kanotix as a Sid distro
NO COMMENT
It seems to me that some people forget too often that Kanotix can exist only thanks to Debian Stable
And debian Stable wouldn't be around if not for DEBIAN SID
analogtek - 11.11.2006, 07:23 Uhr
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In reguard to Etch. I have just changed my source list to point to etch. then I did a simple dist-upgrade. I ended up with what seemed to be Etch. Well it Booted like Kanotix but it run same.. Debian is debian... I see very little diff.... It all blurrs...
Daniele - 11.11.2006, 07:38 Uhr
Titel:
analogtek hat folgendes geschrieben::
In reguard to Etch. I have just changed my source list to point to etch. then I did a simple dist-upgrade. I ended up with what seemed to be Etch. Well it Booted like Kanotix but it run same.. Debian is debian... I see very little diff.... It all blurrs...
The only difference you would notice, once Etch is declared stable, you wouldn't have to upgrade/dist-upgrade. A stable, rock-solid OS until you get enough of it.
wegface - 11.11.2006, 07:55 Uhr
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In a discussion about etch, only natural to bring the dreaded ubuntu up.
Daniele - 11.11.2006, 08:00 Uhr
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wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
In a discussion about etch, only natural to bring the dreaded ubuntu up.
I can't understand why...
slam - 11.11.2006, 08:31 Uhr
Titel:
There is no reason for me to pretend artificial harmony.
I don't like Ubuntu for many reasons, the most important because it degrades intelligent human beings to stupid slaves of dog-brown pseudo-simplicity. Most people are clever - not stupid, and they therefore don't need to be dumbed down, or someone else to decide for them. It's that entirely inhuman philosophical approach of Ubuntu I can't stand. I believe it is very dangerous to educate people to NOT think any more (and just click and accept what is given). And they even do it in the name of self-called "humanity".
There are many other reasons, some technical, some questions of personal taste - but the above is the main reason why I actively fight Ubuntu, and not just silently let them go on (same for Microsoft and all those others who try to educate the next generation of slaves). Computers are important tools and political weapons in our world today, and what happens on them by default is very important. So, my motivation is actually a political one, you may say.
It's a tragedy that Mark Shuttleworth managed to attract several talented developers with his dog-brown vision. I feel deeply sorry for them, because he really made them believe that they would do something good - besides making money. He himself might even believe that he is doing the right thing. There is also a very nice community using and supporting Ubuntu, some of them mindless Windows refugees, but most of them again clever and talented people. It is time to open their eyes and help them to find a more critical point of view at their operating system.
Greetings,
Chris
Daniele - 11.11.2006, 09:10 Uhr
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Chris
I fully agree with you about Ubuntu and I always did.
Libranet/Kanotix are just installers and extra tools on top of Debian Proper.
Ubuntu is something entirely different. It almost gives me the creeps.
eco2geek - 11.11.2006, 10:08 Uhr
Titel:
Slam, if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute...
The reason Knoppix will always mean a lot to me is that, not only was it an amazing live CD, it was the first version of Debian I could get installed on my hard drive. (You can laugh at my first attempt to install Sarge, here.) After reading how Knoppix wasn't really meant to be upgraded, someone pointed me to Kanotix -- which was also very easy to install.
What Knoppix and Kanotix (and their respective forums!) did was allow me to learn how to use Debian, to the point where I no longer really needed "training wheels". (And Debian's become a lot easier to install, as well.) But if Ubuntu had been around then, I might have started with it instead.
Believe me, there are many, many people out there who want to use computers, but who do not want, under most circumstances, to dink around with editing configuration files, or learn about the "dpkg-reconfigure" command, or...you get the point. They just want to turn on their computer, have an OS come up, and be able to use a word processor or a web browser. It's just like how most people don't want to work on their own cars, they just want to drive them to work.
These are the people Ubuntu's aimed at. Think: They're using Linux when they could be using Windows!
OTOH, it kills me to read posts from Ubuntu fanboys who say things like, "It's time for Debian to die." (Someone actually said that on Slashdot.) Yeah, and where's your next version of Ubuntu going to come from, stupid? Fedora Core rpms?
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
is it only me who finds Ubuntu buggy as hell?
I was going to play with Kubuntu last week, but their buggy installer wouldn't let me use an existing ext3 partition with data on it as the root partition unless I reformatted it first. So much for that!
slam - 11.11.2006, 11:10 Uhr
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eco2geek: I fully agree with you that it is necessary to make installation and configuration perfectly easy and well documented. I really appreciate Ubuntu's contribution to the Linux world as far as improving usability is concerned.
However, my point was their restriction of choices by dumbing down Debian in several ways (creating own limited repositories, making packages intentionally incompatible for usage into and out of Ubuntu, deactivating several configuration choices, etc.).
Greetings,
Chris
dedot - 11.11.2006, 15:16 Uhr
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Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
As to the stability of Kanotix... I can't print, I can't read an automounted CD/DVD (apparently I don't have enough permissions, even as root)...
And not everybody likes the daily updates, with all the uncertainties they bring.
And please, let's stop with this fairy tale that Sid is oh so stable.
I have been using Debian for longer than I care to remember, since the early times of Libranet, and I know people who have been using it for much longer than me. A Sid dist-upgrade can go fine one day, but bork your system beyond recovery the next. If you don't believe me, use apt-listbugs and you'll be very surprised.
SID is VERY stable, i've been dist-upgrading 3 days a week for more than 1 year the same Kanotix 2005-04 with very few issues (solved with the help of the forum, irc, kanotix news, successive dist-upgrades, etc) and I'm still using that installation with the latest kernels. When I have a problem, usually the fault is mine, not of the OS It's always better to check out what really went wrong during the installation or while configurating something, before saying that the software has bugs.
dedot - 11.11.2006, 15:30 Uhr
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slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
So, my motivation is actually a political one, you may say.
I don't think that Ubuntu is so brain damaging or politically dangerous, my motivation to "hate Ubuntu" is aesthetical: i can't use a dog-brown coloured system......
Talking seriously, i think that the most important motivations to criticize Ubuntu are the technical ones you mentioned before. I don't even think that ubuntu documentation is so useful (Open Synaptic, Click on Edit and select "Preferences..." 
), I only like like their forums (only because there a lot of users and a lot of posts, sometimes interesting).
Daniele - 11.11.2006, 22:18 Uhr
Titel:
dedot hat folgendes geschrieben::
SID is VERY stable, i've been dist-upgrading 3 days a week for more than 1 year the same Kanotix 2005-04 with very few issues (solved with the help of the forum, irc, kanotix news, successive dist-upgrades, etc) and I'm still using that installation with the latest kernels. When I have a problem, usually the fault is mine, not of the OS
It's always better to check out what really went wrong during the installation or while configurating something, before saying that the software has bugs.
Aren't you presuming a bit too much? For how long have you been using Linux and Debian?
I was helping thousands of people in other forums and with other nicks much before Kanotix became a known distro.
Write in a Debian mailing list that "SID is VERY stable" and that one can't say "that the software (Sid) has bugs" and see what a fool they'll make of you.
devil - 11.11.2006, 22:26 Uhr
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daniele,
sid is not always stable, how could it be?
what makes it stable in the kanotix environment is the community, forum, chat.
and again: apt-listbugs means nothing.
greetz
devil
Daniele - 11.11.2006, 22:48 Uhr
Titel:
devil hat folgendes geschrieben::
daniele,
sid is not always stable, how could it be?
what makes it stable in the kanotix environment is the community, forum, chat.
and again: apt-listbugs means nothing.
greetz
devil
Devil,
So basically you agree with me.
Kanotix is stable when it is released, but you can not guarantee for the stability of almost 20,000 packages in Sid.
I know very well about apt-listbugs: normally it reports bugs which have already been fixed. But the new ones aren't reported anywhere.
h2 - 11.11.2006, 23:25 Uhr
Titel:
It's hard to actually see any point to this thread, but just to add: it's not sid that's stable, it's kanotix that stabilizes sid. Fixes come out faster for issues with kanotix than sid, and some kanotix fixes turn out to become the debian sid fixes.
So for those who want the latest sid stuff, but can't deal with the instability of using debian unstable in its standard form, kanotix was born.
This is pretty simple, and hard to understand what the point is about arguing about this. Etch is easy to install for many hardware configurations, but will, over time, become fairly outdated, especially in parts of the software pool. Which makes it a perfect choice for those people who are completely satisfied with today's software packages, and don't care about getting the latest fix etc.
If for some reason kanotix decides to release a kanotix branded stable etch, that would make some sense in some ways, especially commercially speaking, but it would not, I think, be particularly different than stable etch, except maybe for the kernels.
What it comes down to is if there is time and energy available to do the proposed project. It's always interesting to see people recommend that x or y be done, but it's likewise interesting to note if the person who wants it done is willing to spend some time doing it.
Making a simple suggestion is always nice, but then going on about it beyond that point really starts demanding some more concrete effort on the part of that person... so get to work.
dedot - 12.11.2006, 00:50 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
Write in a Debian mailing list that "SID is VERY stable" and that one can't say "that the software (Sid) has bugs" and see what a fool they'll make of you.
Lot of people will tell you that sid is relatively more stable than etch, not because sid software has fewer bugs, but because there are more Sid users than Etch: bugs are usually found quickly and (often) solved quickly.
I don't think I'm presuming too much: saying that the printer or the cd drive doesn't work because sid software is buggy is just an exaggeration.
IMHO (and i don't really care to tell you about how much i've been using linux, i'll just say that you're the only one presuming too much: you're criticizing kanotix sid and you said that you've never used kanotix as a sid distro!) i confirm that kanotix sid has been (and is) very stable.
eco2geek - 12.11.2006, 04:14 Uhr
Titel:
Now that we've had that discussion, assuming we're all still speaking to each other -- perhaps it might be more productive to find out what specific problems Daniele's having and try to help her solve them.
Daniele? Yes, no, maybe?
piper - 12.11.2006, 04:46 Uhr
Titel:
Post subject: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
I think the problem has been solved ??????????????????
I expect a good amount of flames, but I don't mind, as I am pretty sure that my suggestion is a good one.
Daniele - 12.11.2006, 07:33 Uhr
Titel:
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Post subject: A Debian Stable (Etch) based release?
I think the problem has been solved ??????????????????
I expect a good amount of flames, but I don't mind, as I am pretty sure that my suggestion is a good one.
I did expect some flames, but not quite as many. I didn't expect people to be so fanatical. Obviously I was wrong.
And yes, the problem has been solved:
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Besides all that and back on topic:
Kano was talking about the possibility to prepare a Kanotix-improved Etch after it has reached it's final shape. He did not promise anything, however.
So, stay tuned - your wish may come true.
Therefore, this is the end of the thread as far as I am concerned.
But not before giving you some food for thought:
http://wooledge.org/~greg/sidfaq.html
Zitat:
What is unstable?
Unstable is where packages go after they've been uploaded by the maintainer, and cleared for release by the FTP master. If you use an unstable package, the only thing you can say with any certainty is that it compiled on the developer's system. It may contain *horrible bugs*.
---------------------------------------------------------
Should I use sid on my desktop?
If you think you can handle a broken Debian system, sure. Do you know what to do if libpam0g breaks, preventing all logins? Do you know what to do if grep breaks, causing the boot process to hang forever? These things have happened. They will happen again.
If you'd like to avoid the brown-paper-bag bugs like these, then use testing instead.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Should I use sid on my server?
Are you insane? No!
piper - 12.11.2006, 09:45 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
I did expect some flames, but not quite as many. I didn't expect people to be so fanatical. Obviously I was wrong
Should I use sid on my desktop?
If you think you can handle a broken Debian system, sure. Do you know what to do if libpam0g breaks, preventing all logins? Do you know what to do if grep breaks, causing the boot process to hang forever? These things have happened. They will happen again.
If you'd like to avoid the brown-paper-bag bugs like these, then use testing instead..
Should I use sid on my server?
Are you insane? No!
IMHO nobody flamed you, you came to a debian sid forum and requested that it makes some changes to become Etch (next stable version of debian)
Can you imagine if I went to the Debian,MEPIS,Ubuntu,Libranet etc..........forums and made a request that they make there next version SID.............
or better yet going to a M$ site and requesting that they do there next version Open Source and base it on SID
I personally couldn't do it, I know better and that would only be asking for trouble or better yet a FlameWar
Of course someone here did mention that
"team members" like to alienate people, but to me, that person seemed to be steaming things up that didn't need to be and starting something that wasn't happening.
Your questions were answered (and slam gave you a reply about a maybe), 3-4 people didn't like the answers, and that is going to ruin the reputation of kanotix and debian sid.
I have used almost every distro on distrowatch (starting at mandrake 7, so not very long) and Kanotix which is based on SID is more stable than any other "stable" distro out there (my opinion) that includes Etch which I also use.
Etch will be like sarge is now 2 days after it's release obsolete. There is nothing wrong with that for people who want that. But it don't take a rocket scientist (not the Australian rock band or Hugh Blumenfeld) to come to a Unstable forum and request that it changes it's ways.
This is not about the last word, this is about you and someone else who thinks you are getting flamed when in the end, "you made the bed", and me getting blamed (team member) for ruining the rep of SID and Kanotix.
You may now have the last word, I don't want it.
If you'd like to avoid the brown-paper-bag bugs like these, then use testing instead......
slam - 12.11.2006, 10:17 Uhr
Titel:
Everybody here is very welcome to contribute ideas & suggestions. Of course we want and need bug reports, too. But most needed and apreciated are those few people who actually help doing the stuff we are doing at Kanotix. And what we really don't need is people explaining to our team members how Sid (or Kanotix) works, how stable it is, or how secure - because they work with and on Sid every day and night, most of them since many years. So, if they don't already know - who should?
I have a very special welcome in mind for the next person showing up in our forums and trying to "educate" out team members or developers. And this will be a very, very special welcome - believe me.
Greetings,
Chris
bluewater - 12.11.2006, 12:15 Uhr
Titel:
If i want etch, I will bloody well install Debian etch.as they are the ones whom distribute it,, and spent as a team, god knows how may thousands of person hours to get it up running and viable , they are the ones that make the distro . i dont need kanotix for that,,
However if i want Debian sid,state of the art,cutting edge thinking thats another ballgame ,, Debian does not release a" Debian sid " distro,, Kanotix does and i dont think anyone has the guts too, either
moltas - 12.11.2006, 17:45 Uhr
Titel:
yes the kanotix team know howto handel sid, and i respect the hard work going on. Thats wy i am on this forum. And yes sarge and testing downt need kanotix.
but i know as a newb. that we need you to be able to run sid. so Thanks.
I downt know if this can be, but i like to see a kanotix net-install cd.
Thanks
Bertil
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